Curly Kale?

[GBtortoises]

Ozric, if you haven't already read it this recently published book may be of interest to you (and any other Hermann's keepers): "Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises" by Wolfgang Wegehaupt. I found it to be a fantastic book.

 

[helensky]

Mark thanks for that article, I'll certainly check it out. I'm still not convinced about Hermanns eating a lot of high protein plants in the wild.

I know this is hardly scientific but if ever there is a worm in the garden my tortoises quite literally pounce on it! Once a little green caterpillar came in on some leaves from the garden and the same thing happened, you just can't stop them! Not a plant, but in my limited experience they certainly seem to seek out protein.

 

[GBtortoises]

Helensky-I've witnessed my Hermann's eating earthworms and garden slugs too. I don't purposely feed them to my tortoises but if I happen to be digging in one of their enclosures and stir up some worms I just throw them out of the way. A good percentage of the time I'll look back to see a tortoise stalking the worm, ready to pounce on it's prey! So I have to agree, I think that they do require a certain amount of protein in their diet. I stick with plant protein normally but a few worms now and then certainly aren't going create any problems either.

 

[Ozric]

Ozric, if you haven't already read it this recently published book may be of interest to you (and any other Hermann's keepers): "Naturalistic Keeping and Breeding of Hermann's Tortoises" by Wolfgang Wegehaupt. I found it to be a fantastic book.

Hi GB - yes I have that book and agree it is excellent. His enclosures are fantastic. I asked Wolfgang about a few of the items on his feeder plant list because they don't appear on other lists. His reply basically had to do with the fact that tortoises in the wild eat differently to those in captivity. Another book which I also like and in some ways similar is Holger Vetters book in the Chelonian Library series.
These guys are lucky in that their climate is a lot more like it is in the natural range of the hermann compared to what I have to manage with.

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Hi again! Yes my hermanns will eat slugs if they can get them. I think these kinds of foods might be really scarce in the natural habitat. Down in the south of France there are not the amount of slugs that I get here in Scotland. But yes I agree the tortoise knows it is a food source.

 

[Tom]

Hi friends

yes I'm familiar with the uses of rhubarb as a human desert food. Usually with loads of sugar added. Chewing on the raw stalks straight from the garden would be a bit sour to say the least. I did say poisonous 'to tortoises' and personally I wouldn't feed the stalk of something whose leaf is poisonous.

Yes mediterranean tortoises do eat leguminous plants of which there are quite a few that can occur in their range. But this is not the same as feeding them a pile of beans. I believe their natural diet would be very low in protein and there are possible problems caused by feeding an excess of it. Without going off into a whole tangent about pyramiding which is another subject, I don't think its 100% caused by a lack of humidity. Wrong diet seems likely to be a factor in it.
I'm not sure that medical science is ever going to invest heavily in tortoise diet research and on that basis I believe there is a
lot to be said for making an effort to mimic what they get in the wild. Human being are not doing too well on manufactured foods so I don't see why I would inflict this on a tortoise.

Just to add to your discussion. Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity. Diet is only a factor in that, more growth would accompany a higher nutrition, higher protein diet. Meaning, more protein and more nutrition in the absence of sufficient humidity, causes more growth and more pyramiding. The study cited by Madkins above amply demonstrates this, as does all of my personal experience, as does a mountain of anecdotal evidence.

 

[GBtortoises]

I also agree that lack of sufficient ambient humidity & substrate moisture are the major contributors of pyramiding. I also think that diet, activity level and excessive constant heat are contributing factors when a proper humidity level is not obtainable by a younger, still developing and growing tortoise. But as an adult whose body is already developed with no further growth taking place, ambient humidity and substrate moisture play less of an important role (but still necessary) while correct diet, activity levels and temperatures play a larger role in keeping them healthy overall. In any case, hatchling to old adult, hydration, (not to be confused with ambient humidity or substrate moisture) is vitally important for several reasons. They should drink often.

Protein plays the same role in tortoises as it does in humans and probably most other animals-it strenghtens muscle tissue, provides energy and to some extent may also help to resist disease. I'm not suggesting that tortoises be fed Muscle Milk or raw meat or canned dog food anything with high volumes of animal proteins in them. But there is no reason to shy away from feeding them plant and vegetable food sources that contain protein. Those foods should simply be fed like all foods should be-in great variety. I've raised some of my adults from hatchlings on the same foods that I still feed them today, many containing higher proteins and none of them are pyramided. But all of them have always been kept well hydrated and in an environment that has a correct level of ambient humidity and substrate moisture while indoors. And thanks to mother nature, while outdoors too!

 

[helensky]

Helensky-I've witnessed my Hermann's eating earthworms and garden slugs too. I don't purposely feed them to my tortoises but if I happen to be digging in one of their enclosures and stir up some worms I just throw them out of the way. A good percentage of the time I'll look back to see a tortoise stalking the worm, ready to pounce on it's prey! So I have to agree, I think that they do require a certain amount of protein in their diet. I stick with plant protein normally but a few worms now and then certainly aren't going create any problems either.

I have never intentionally given my torts a yummy little invertebrate, but by the same stroke once they've taken that first bite there is simply no way of stopping them from eating it! Tallis once ate an earthworm twice her length (she was about a year at the time so pretty tiny) purely because once part of it was down her gullet there's no way I could stop her! I honestly never imagined a tortoise could pounce, but it is the only way to describe a tortoise versus a worm!

 

[GBtortoises]

When I used to also keep terrestrial turtles I had one male North American Wood turtle that would literally ambush worms! He'd sit perfectly still until the worm was in just the right position and them would almost come completely off the ground as he lunged for the worm! He was a well oiled killing machine! LOL