Concerned about tortoise

[Geralt]

Hi,

I've had this Greek Moroccan tortoise for a half a year or so now and I've noticed recently it's began to slow down dramatically. It barely moves and just sits under the floodlight and sleeps there and wake up when it's on. I encourage it to eat but it barely tries to. I've also noticed it's been making squeaking noises and opening and closing it's mouth frequently or smacking it's mouth together when I've placed it in water. It seems like it's in discomfort. It also keeps blowing water out when I put it in, it has enough height to stick it's head above but it seems highly uncomfortable and so I took it out.

Any suggestions or thoughts about it? I wondered if it could be coming near brumation period but I'm not sure if greek Moroccans brumate? My other tortoise is of the same species but it is much more active and mobile so I worry it is a health issue.

If it helps, I'll add that I've been feeding them a mix of spring greens, dandelions, kale, some vegetables like very fine carrot or others that they like, small amount of fruit like apples and grapes every now and then.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello! Sorry to hear this is happening, off the bat based on the tortoise wanting to sit under the basking light so much, I’m thinking he’s too cool, would you mind trying to answer these questions? It’d be helpful for any members coming along to advise

Are your tortoises housed as a pair?
What are your temperatures like? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps, night temps?
What kind is it an incandescent reptile floodlight you’re using? Not a spot?
What’s your indoor uv type?
How’s humidity reading? Is it a closed chamber?
What do you use for substrate?

A photo of the full set up(s) would be great if you’re willing to share! I wouldn’t keep feeding any kind of fruits

 

[COmtnLady]

Are each of your torts in their own enclosure, or do you have them together?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I've also noticed it's been making squeaking noises and opening and closing it's mouth frequently or smacking it's mouth together when I've placed it in water. It seems like it's in discomfort.

These sound like symptoms of respitory infection. How long has your tortoise been like this? Please answer the questions above. A vet visit and antibiotics might be needed.

 

[Geralt]

Hello! Sorry to hear this is happening, off the bat based on the tortoise wanting to sit under the basking light so much, I’m thinking he’s too cool, would you mind trying to answer these questions? It’d be helpful for any members coming along to advise

Are your tortoises housed as a pair?
What are your temperatures like? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps, night temps?
What kind is it an incandescent reptile floodlight you’re using? Not a spot?
What’s your indoor uv type?
How’s humidity reading? Is it a closed chamber?
What do you use for substrate?

A photo of the full set up(s) would be great if you’re willing to share! I wouldn’t keep feeding any kind of fruits

Hi,

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your comment, there's been alot of problems I've had to attend to.

In terms of your questions, I am ashamed to say that I don't have an answer to many of them. They were originally with my mother and she has passed away recently, I've taken them and I don't have the equipment yet. I've ordered some uv bulbs, heat gun for detection and some new substrate. I've also ordered a small heater and I'm planning on covering the enclosure as it is currently open.

The torts are in the attic, all the heat travels up and it's usually very warm. I've assumed ambiant temperature to be okay. The bulb in 50w and about 6 inches away from the tortoise shell , it's warm and I swapped it with a previous 100W bulb as I was concerned without a temp gun that it could be too hot.

Humidity is also hard to say, I don't know what equipment to get for that. I bathe them regularly though and spray the enclosure with water every day just to keep it a little bit moist.

An update on the tortoise is that is hasn't been eating as the temperature in UK gets colder. I assumed it was beginning to brumate but the other tortoise wasn't. I suspected it was ill and it was eating or moving and so I kept it's temperature low. I was unsure about brumation, especially since it was ill-advised to brumate an ill tortoise. I wasn't sure it was ill at that moment and it wasn't eating what I was giving it so I followed through and tried to keep it cool.

I've woken it up now as I've checked up on it and it was blowing a small mucus bubble. I don't want to risk it dying from an illness. It's eyes I've noticed too have something in them, ill attach a picture to it. I'm bathing it twice a day now. It also still makes the squeaky noises and especially squeaky in water

 

[Geralt]

Are each of your torts in their own enclosure, or do you have them together?

At the moment they are together. I'm trying to one of them another home but it's been unsuccessful.

They haven't clashed yet which is good but I assume it won't last long. I'm working on getting a bigger enclosure.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I suspected it was ill and it was eating or moving and so I kept it's temperature low. I was unsure about brumation, especially since it was ill-advised to brumate an ill tortoise. I wasn't sure it was ill at that moment and it wasn't eating what I was giving it so I followed through and tried to keep it cool.

I've woken it up now as I've checked up on it and it was blowing a small mucus bubble. I don't want to risk it dying from an illness. It's eyes I've noticed too have something in them, ill attach a picture to it. I'm bathing it twice a day now. It also still makes the squeaky noises and especially squeaky in water

I am sorry to hear that the tortoise is unwell.

When the tortoise is ill, you should do the opposite of keeping the temperature low. With repitory symptoms, temperatures of 29 C are recommended.

You can add baby food made from 100% carrots to the soaking water, 50% carrot puree and 50% water. This will help to get any extra nutrients in him.

The respiratory infection might require antibiotics to clear up.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi,

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your comment, there's been alot of problems I've had to attend to.

In terms of your questions, I am ashamed to say that I don't have an answer to many of them. They were originally with my mother and she has passed away recently, I've taken them and I don't have the equipment yet. I've ordered some uv bulbs, heat gun for detection and some new substrate. I've also ordered a small heater and I'm planning on covering the enclosure as it is currently open.

The torts are in the attic, all the heat travels up and it's usually very warm. I've assumed ambiant temperature to be okay. The bulb in 50w and about 6 inches away from the tortoise shell , it's warm and I swapped it with a previous 100W bulb as I was concerned without a temp gun that it could be too hot.

Humidity is also hard to say, I don't know what equipment to get for that. I bathe them regularly though and spray the enclosure with water every day just to keep it a little bit moist.

An update on the tortoise is that is hasn't been eating as the temperature in UK gets colder. I assumed it was beginning to brumate but the other tortoise wasn't. I suspected it was ill and it was eating or moving and so I kept it's temperature low. I was unsure about brumation, especially since it was ill-advised to brumate an ill tortoise. I wasn't sure it was ill at that moment and it wasn't eating what I was giving it so I followed through and tried to keep it cool.

I've woken it up now as I've checked up on it and it was blowing a small mucus bubble. I don't want to risk it dying from an illness. It's eyes I've noticed too have something in them, ill attach a picture to it. I'm bathing it twice a day now. It also still makes the squeaky noises and especially squeaky in water

Hello, no worries thanks for getting back to us!
Don’t worry you can’t answer everything right now, your photos have helped!
Sorry to hear about your mother!

It does sadly sound like one of your babies has a respiratory infection, this is usually from being kept too cool. With no current way to measure the temperature that could be the case. I definitely wouldn’t brumate this year.

Eyes do look quite swollen, it’s hard to say exactly what’s causing that, could be incorrect lighting(for a basking light you want a incandescent floodlight, Arcadia or pro rep do them) or dusty substrate, or even a part of the RI.

May I ask what kind of uv bulbs you’ve ordered? Some are quite dangerous to use so it’s best I check with you, what substrate have you ordered?
And yeah as they are babies they definitely do need putting into a closed chamber set up as soon as possible for their humidity, to measure that I’d get yourself a digital monitor that measures both the humidity and temperature.

I’d suggest giving this housing thread a read, I know it says Herman and Russians but care advice can still apply here, the only adjustments I’d suggest is having overall ambient temperature in the 85f range for the sick baby, as well as the desired basking temperature, to achieve this I think you’re going to need a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) this will run on a thermostat 24/7.
This thread covers correct equipment(uvb, basking, lighting etc), levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better! However as you have two, there’s a few ways to go about this, they do really need separating as soon as, so maybe get one big set up with a solid visual barrier between the two, or you’d be surprised the kind of things you can find on Facebook marketplace!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options, some run more efficiently than others

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, probably the most important, this one is also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Really hope they help! Give them a read and I’m happy answering any further questions/providing UK links to everything you need

 

[wellington]

You need to seperate them ASAP and get the temps correct and monitored. The sick one needs to be kept at 80F day and night until it's doing better. The two together is not helping the sick one either. Tortoises kept in pairs is stressful on them and can make them sick or kill them.
Do not brumate them. They need a basking area of 95-100F all over temps of 80F and night temps of 70F but not the sick one, don't lower his temps at night.

 

[TammyJ]

Isolation and warmth! Most important and must be done first. Wishing your tortoise a good recovery. Whatever happens, they really do need their own separate enclosures as tortoises should not be kept in pairs, for many reasons.

 

[Geralt]

Hello, no worries thanks for getting back to us!
Don’t worry you can’t answer everything right now, your photos have helped!
Sorry to hear about your mother!

It does sadly sound like one of your babies has a respiratory infection, this is usually from being kept too cool. With no current way to measure the temperature that could be the case. I definitely wouldn’t brumate this year.

Eyes do look quite swollen, it’s hard to say exactly what’s causing that, could be incorrect lighting(for a basking light you want a incandescent floodlight, Arcadia or pro rep do them) or dusty substrate, or even a part of the RI.

May I ask what kind of uv bulbs you’ve ordered? Some are quite dangerous to use so it’s best I check with you, what substrate have you ordered?
And yeah as they are babies they definitely do need putting into a closed chamber set up as soon as possible for their humidity, to measure that I’d get yourself a digital monitor that measures both the humidity and temperature.

I’d suggest giving this housing thread a read, I know it says Herman and Russians but care advice can still apply here, the only adjustments I’d suggest is having overall ambient temperature in the 85f range for the sick baby, as well as the desired basking temperature, to achieve this I think you’re going to need a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) this will run on a thermostat 24/7.
This thread covers correct equipment(uvb, basking, lighting etc), levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better! However as you have two, there’s a few ways to go about this, they do really need separating as soon as, so maybe get one big set up with a solid visual barrier between the two, or you’d be surprised the kind of things you can find on Facebook marketplace!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes different closed chamber options, some run more efficiently than others

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, probably the most important, this one is also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

https://tort oiseforum.org/threads/common-keeping-errors.217956/

Really hope they help! Give them a read and I’m happy answering any further questions/providing UK links to everything you need

Hi,

Apologies again for the delayed response, it's been rather hectic recently, I hope you can understand. I really respect the time to help me and your advice is deeply appreciated. The information you have mentioned along with the links have shown to be very useful and I have been looking on a off and looked at them all now. I think your visual approach is much needed in this space, tremendously useful.

In terms of my current bulb, I was under the impression is was a flood light but it is actually a 50W arcadia spotlight. I will need to change that although I wasn't able to find exactly if it was just ideal for a flood light and not detrimental to have a spot light bulb. Ofc, it would be situational, but given it is at an appropriate distance is it detrimental?

The UV bulb I have planned to order is the Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 T5 UVB Lamp, 24 W. I believe it was recommended by Tom in his suggested items. I also found the substrate from that same article, Zoo Med XR-10 Excavator Clay. If I remember correctly, he said it replicates the type of substrate familiar to my morrocan torts, colour and hardness, not too firm etc. I have also planned to buy a tubular heater as opposed to the Ceramic healing elements. It seems to me the tubular heaters would be more effective and can be applied to a wall. I'm not sure which is more cost effective and I'd be interested to know how much I should expect for a che to cost to run. Are they better than a tubular heater? The one I was looking at was the "Hylite Slimline Ecoheater Tube Heater with Thermostat White 300mm 28W". All of these are found on amazon.

I would like to house them in a closed chamber and your articles have been very insightful, particularly what not to do. Right now for me, space and money is most important. I'm trying to be as cost effective as I can and space is also limited. I have one or two spaces in mind with a good amount of room for them but it's still difficult to decide as it's quite an usual spot. For cost effectiveness, I've considered building the enclosures myself and I'll refer again to those articles for inspiration and detail. Are there any draw backs to the green house mesh or maybe in comparison to something like a polycarbonate chamber? Also, for DIY do you have any particular approach, advice tips on it's construction? Seals, material type, thickness , furnish? Etc.

Also, an update on the tortoise - she (I say "she" as an assumption) is not making much improvement. She is still not moving at all, I bathe her everyday twice with warm water and she has completely refused to eat. She seems almost like she doesn't have the strength to move, but in other instances it seems she does but chooses not to. She drinks water only and it's been like this for almost a month. I've tried to force feed her but I don't want to add to her stress and make her more ill. Vets are not that common around but I have found one that I'm going to visit this week.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi,

Apologies again for the delayed response, it's been rather hectic recently, I hope you can understand. I really respect the time to help me and your advice is deeply appreciated. The information you have mentioned along with the links have shown to be very useful and I have been looking on a off and looked at them all now. I think your visual approach is much needed in this space, tremendously useful.

In terms of my current bulb, I was under the impression is was a flood light but it is actually a 50W arcadia spotlight. I will need to change that although I wasn't able to find exactly if it was just ideal for a flood light and not detrimental to have a spot light bulb. Ofc, it would be situational, but given it is at an appropriate distance is it detrimental?

The UV bulb I have planned to order is the Zoo Med Reptisun 10.0 T5 UVB Lamp, 24 W. I believe it was recommended by Tom in his suggested items. I also found the substrate from that same article, Zoo Med XR-10 Excavator Clay. If I remember correctly, he said it replicates the type of substrate familiar to my morrocan torts, colour and hardness, not too firm etc. I have also planned to buy a tubular heater as opposed to the Ceramic healing elements. It seems to me the tubular heaters would be more effective and can be applied to a wall. I'm not sure which is more cost effective and I'd be interested to know how much I should expect for a che to cost to run. Are they better than a tubular heater? The one I was looking at was the "Hylite Slimline Ecoheater Tube Heater with Thermostat White 300mm 28W". All of these are found on amazon.

I would like to house them in a closed chamber and your articles have been very insightful, particularly what not to do. Right now for me, space and money is most important. I'm trying to be as cost effective as I can and space is also limited. I have one or two spaces in mind with a good amount of room for them but it's still difficult to decide as it's quite an usual spot. For cost effectiveness, I've considered building the enclosures myself and I'll refer again to those articles for inspiration and detail. Are there any draw backs to the green house mesh or maybe in comparison to something like a polycarbonate chamber? Also, for DIY do you have any particular approach, advice tips on it's construction? Seals, material type, thickness , furnish? Etc.

Also, an update on the tortoise - she (I say "she" as an assumption) is not making much improvement. She is still not moving at all, I bathe her everyday twice with warm water and she has completely refused to eat. She seems almost like she doesn't have the strength to move, but in other instances it seems she does but chooses not to. She drinks water only and it's been like this for almost a month. I've tried to force feed her but I don't want to add to her stress and make her more ill. Vets are not that common around but I have found one that I'm going to visit this week.

No problem at all! I’m so glad you’ve found those links useful!

With spot bulbs, they might not necessarily be detrimental to their physical health but they aren’t the best in terms of shell health, they can be quite desiccating and dry them out, some have mentioned a link towards pyramiding. All in all floodlights are much better suited for tortoises, Arcadia do them quite reasonably priced

Sounds like you’re going for a good uvb choice
I can’t answer to the clay as I’ve not personally used it, I’m wondering if @Tom could answer to which would be a better buy, clay or coir for example. I’m hoping he can also answer your heating question as we don’t use that kind of heating, I’m thinking it being mounted on the side won’t heat the enclosure properly though, we personally use CHE’s I wish I could answer the cost but it’s my moms partner who houses our red foot and pays her heating bills lol, but I’ll try getting you that answer!

In terms of an enclosure build, yeah diy is probably going to be your best bet if working with an unusual space, a lot of people do find their greenhouse set ups to run very well and give good ground readings, I haven’t ran a greenhouse one myself because when looking at them for our red foot, I found some folks here in the uk just couldn’t quite keep their temperatures where needed in our bitter winters, but our red needs slightly higher temps all over 24/7 unlike your guys, so it may well work great for you. A polycarbonate top could potentially work a bit better. I don’t suppose you’ve had a look on Facebook marketplace? Sometimes people are selling vivs cheaper, they’re good at retaining heat, if sealed properly with aquatic seal and some lining under the substrate, they can last a while.

I’m sorry there’s not been improvement on the sick little onedid you manage to figure out some temporary housing to get them separated and heated better?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
Did you manage to keep your sick tortoise in warmer conditions day and night? I suggest to address this first - probably by moving her in temporary enclosure made out of a large plastic container with controlled heat. As she is not very active this should work.

Spotlights are different from floodlights in beam width (this can be corrected by appropriate distance) and radiation pattern. Floodlights usually have frosted glass sleeve which results in even light/heat distribution but spotlights can have frosted coating (e.g. ExoTerra Intense Basking Spot) or have just clear glass (ProRep Basking Spotlight, Arcadia Solar Basking Spotlight). The latter are hard to set up right (you'll get a lot of small hot spots withing basking area) for larger animals.

For substrate just go with coco coir or orchid bark. I believe Excavator Clay is from older Tom's care sheets.

While ZooMed UVB lamps are good it's easier (and cheaper, I guess) to find Arcadia ProT5 or Reptile Systems Zone 3 T5 Kit in UK.

For DIY enclosures usually Foam PVC sheets are go-to material as they are safe and water-proof. You can use polycarbonate as well with a good rigid frame. Size-wise you may want to put one enclosure on top of another, you can use warehouse shelf rack with enclosure walls fixed directly to the rack frame.

I don't know if tube heater will work better than CHE but it looks promising. Probably, under the hood it's similar to Radiant heat panels or oil-filled radiators - so worth a shot.

 

[Geralt]

No problem at all! I’m so glad you’ve found those links useful!

With spot bulbs, they might not necessarily be detrimental to their physical health but they aren’t the best in terms of shell health, they can be quite desiccating and dry them out, some have mentioned a link towards pyramiding. All in all floodlights are much better suited for tortoises, Arcadia do them quite reasonably priced
View attachment 384997
Sounds like you’re going for a good uvb choice
I can’t answer to the clay as I’ve not personally used it, I’m wondering if @Tom could answer to which would be a better buy, clay or coir for example. I’m hoping he can also answer your heating question as we don’t use that kind of heating, I’m thinking it being mounted on the side won’t heat the enclosure properly though, we personally use CHE’s I wish I could answer the cost but it’s my moms partner who houses our red foot and pays her heating bills lol, but I’ll try getting you that answer!

In terms of an enclosure build, yeah diy is probably going to be your best bet if working with an unusual space, a lot of people do find their greenhouse set ups to run very well and give good ground readings, I haven’t ran a greenhouse one myself because when looking at them for our red foot, I found some folks here in the uk just couldn’t quite keep their temperatures where needed in our bitter winters, but our red needs slightly higher temps all over 24/7 unlike your guys, so it may well work great for you. A polycarbonate top could potentially work a bit better. I don’t suppose you’ve had a look on Facebook marketplace? Sometimes people are selling vivs cheaper, they’re good at retaining heat, if sealed properly with aquatic seal and some lining under the substrate, they can last a while.

I’m sorry there’s not been improvement on the sick little onedid you manage to figure out some temporary housing to get them separated and heated better?

Hi again,

Ah I see, I'll be sure to swap it out. For now I've raised the bulb distance to widen the beam as the laser thermometer I got was showing almost 50°C it's now at around 35°c at the center and cooler on the edges.

I also went back to find that care sheet that mentioned excavator clay and I was mistaken in attributing it to Tom, it was actually HermanniChris. Here is the care sheet:

Greek Tortoise Care Guide

The Greek Tortoise Care Guide (Testudo graeca ssp) Chris Leone HermanniHaven.com GardenStateTortoise.com theTurtleRoom.com THIS CARE-SHEET IS DETAILED FOR A REASON. READ IT THOROUGHLY BEFORE PROCEEDING WITH OBTAINING A TORTOISE. Moroccan tortoise (Testudo graeca marokkensis) Introduction...

www.tortoiseforum.org

I found it from going from Home page-> Mediterranean Tortoises -> Greek Tortoises -> Greek Tortoise Care Sheet Guide.

Good news though, my things have arrived and I've completely enclosed the wooden set up and maintaining temps of around 29°! Kiwi (the sick tortoise) is looking alot better and although not eating or moving, I've been trying to help her eat gently and she manages to eat a little, increasing gradually. The UVB lamp I originally looked at I realised didn't come with the kit and was also too long. I needed a smaller one and the only other pro T5 version was the arcadia mini pro T5 shadedweller, it seemed like it could do the trick for now until I build the next enclosure? It's 7% but I've placed it around 1ft away. Also, how dangerous is the uvb lamp to look at?

I also put a small fan in there to help circulate the heat as the tubular heater was having trouble raising temps and I assumed it was an absent of currents. Averaging 29° now. Is it harmful to have the fan? I haven't seen another against it apart from humidity. Generally though, humidity tends to be in the 50s although I'm not sure if that's too wet for Greek Moroccan?

I'll send some pictures of the set up and the Tortoises.

The other one, Goji, is alot bigger and healthier. Very active and I let him out alot so he can move around as they are in the attic and it gets quite warm up here some times. He did pyramid quite alot but I'm confused as to why only he pyramided yet kiwi is relatively flat?

Thanks for all your help once again, I've referred back to those sheets a number of times.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
Glad to know that Kiwi is getting well!

1. Excavator Clay is not holding moisture well enough and isn't a good substrate on its own. Chris uses top soil for hatchling but coco coir is a safer option and has better water retention. Which is important for keeping correct humidity.
2. ShadeDweller lamps are low wattage. And since overall output is very low, even at 10" they don't provide even nearly enough UVB for tortoises. I would return (or sell/trade-in) it if possible.
3. It's better to avoid looking at UVB lamps, even low powered ones, and turn them off when you work in the enclosure.
4. Fan is not harmful when humidity is high enough. The way you placed it should not do any harm.
5. 50% humidity is too low for tortoise hatchlings. The hygrometer should be placed where your tortoises roam, far from heating elements, to get more accurate readings.
6. Goji is actively eating and growing and I assume warming up under the basking lamp (which in any way desiccates shell). And because overall humidity is low, diet and lights amplify pyramiding.

 

[Geralt]

Hello!
Glad to know that Kiwi is getting well!

1. Excavator Clay is not holding moisture well enough and isn't a good substrate on its own. Chris uses top soil for hatchling but coco coir is a safer option and has better water retention. Which is important for keeping correct humidity.
2. ShadeDweller lamps are low wattage. And since overall output is very low, even at 10" they don't provide even nearly enough UVB for tortoises. I would return (or sell/trade-in) it if possible.
3. It's better to avoid looking at UVB lamps,. even low powered ones, and turn them off when you work in the enclosure.
4. Fan is not harmful when humidity is high enough. The way you placed it should not do any harm.
5. 50% humidity is too low for tortoise hatchlings. The hygrometer should be placed where your tortoises roam, far from heating elements, to get more accurate readings.
6. Goji is actively eating and growing and I assume warming up under the basking lamp (which in any way desiccates shell). And because overall humidity is low, diet and lights amplify pyramiding.

Hi,

Some sad news, kiwi passed away. Just went to try feeding again and she is completely unresponsive. I'm so baffled. She was looking so much better, her eyes weren't sucken in or swollen, she was eating bits of the food I put in her mouth and drinking water fine, temperature has been consistent. I was trying to arrange a vet visit cause local vets aren't available but I had no idea her condition was this urgent. I've poured my heart and time in recently trying to get her everything she needs and watch her, bathe her, etc it's such ashame. I don't know what caused her death, she was just sat outside the basking ring after I had soaked her and I went to do some shopping and found her like this. I thought perhaps impaction but I don't see any other signs of it, she has lost some weight and her plastron was ever so slightly concaved but I've been trying to feed her bits of kale and weeds so surely not starvation... I don't know. Just sad it came to this.

I'll keep the points you've mentioned in mind for Goji and I'll try get the coco coir. I can't help but notice that it seems to be very different from what I'd imagine they'd roam on in nature? Wouldn't they encounter more clay-like landscape than softer coco texture and wouldn't it be drier? What humidity should I be aiming for then for Goji as well? And when you explained the pyramiding, is it just the humidity I need to change to prevent the pyramiding and I guess the bulb type too?

Thanks for all your help btw, I meant to reply to your last message but after responding to littleredfootbigredheart I had to go shopping. Your explanation of the bulbs was very informative.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi again,

Ah I see, I'll be sure to swap it out. For now I've raised the bulb distance to widen the beam as the laser thermometer I got was showing almost 50°C it's now at around 35°c at the center and cooler on the edges.

I also went back to find that care sheet that mentioned excavator clay and I was mistaken in attributing it to Tom, it was actually HermanniChris. Here is the care sheet:

Greek Tortoise Care Guide

The Greek Tortoise Care Guide (Testudo graeca ssp) Chris Leone HermanniHaven.com GardenStateTortoise.com theTurtleRoom.com THIS CARE-SHEET IS DETAILED FOR A REASON. READ IT THOROUGHLY BEFORE PROCEEDING WITH OBTAINING A TORTOISE. Moroccan tortoise (Testudo graeca marokkensis) Introduction...

www.tortoiseforum.org

I found it from going from Home page-> Mediterranean Tortoises -> Greek Tortoises -> Greek Tortoise Care Sheet Guide.

Good news though, my things have arrived and I've completely enclosed the wooden set up and maintaining temps of around 29°! Kiwi (the sick tortoise) is looking alot better and although not eating or moving, I've been trying to help her eat gently and she manages to eat a little, increasing gradually. The UVB lamp I originally looked at I realised didn't come with the kit and was also too long. I needed a smaller one and the only other pro T5 version was the arcadia mini pro T5 shadedweller, it seemed like it could do the trick for now until I build the next enclosure? It's 7% but I've placed it around 1ft away. Also, how dangerous is the uvb lamp to look at?

I also put a small fan in there to help circulate the heat as the tubular heater was having trouble raising temps and I assumed it was an absent of currents. Averaging 29° now. Is it harmful to have the fan? I haven't seen another against it apart from humidity. Generally though, humidity tends to be in the 50s although I'm not sure if that's too wet for Greek Moroccan?

I'll send some pictures of the set up and the Tortoises.

The other one, Goji, is alot bigger and healthier. Very active and I let him out alot so he can move around as they are in the attic and it gets quite warm up here some times. He did pyramid quite alot but I'm confused as to why only he pyramided yet kiwi is relatively flat?

Thanks for all your help once again, I've referred back to those sheets a number of times.

Hello again! Thanks for the update!

I would just stick to coco coir for the substrate, it retains moisture well and will help your humidity

I’m so glad your sick baby is doing better, in regards to the uv I agree with Alex in that it’ll be too weak, have you had a look at the Arcadia pro t5 kits? The 24w(the smallest) should be the perfect size for you! You’ll need the 12%.

In a completely closed set up, a fan shouldn’t cause any issues, though I can’t be certain if it’s ok in this set up, you definitely want to aim for around 80 humidity, that’s what’s helps aid in smoother growth, but the wrong bulbs can definitely contribute too.

I think the reason one pyramided is because he’s the one that’s grown, it’s unfortunately very common if housing in pairs for one to stunt, if she had grown you’d probably have see pyramiding develop on her too.

Hi,

Some sad news, kiwi passed away. Just went to try feeding again and she is completely unresponsive. I'm so baffled. She was looking so much better, her eyes weren't sucken in or swollen, she was eating bits of the food I put in her mouth and drinking water fine, temperature has been consistent. I was trying to arrange a vet visit cause local vets aren't available but I had no idea her condition was this urgent. I've poured my heart and time in recently trying to get her everything she needs and watch her, bathe her, etc it's such ashame. I don't know what caused her death, she was just sat outside the basking ring after I had soaked her and I went to do some shopping and found her like this. I thought perhaps impaction but I don't see any other signs of it, she has lost some weight and her plastron was ever so slightly concaved but I've been trying to feed her bits of kale and weeds so surely not starvation... I don't know. Just sad it came to this.

I'll keep the points you've mentioned in mind for Goji and I'll try get the coco coir. I can't help but notice that it seems to be very different from what I'd imagine they'd roam on in nature? Wouldn't they encounter more clay-like landscape than softer coco texture and wouldn't it be drier? What humidity should I be aiming for then for Goji as well? And when you explained the pyramiding, is it just the humidity I need to change to prevent the pyramiding and I guess the bulb type too?

Thanks for all your help btw, I meant to reply to your last message but after responding to littleredfootbigredheart I had to go shopping. Your explanation of the bulbs was very informative.

Aw I’m so sorry to hear this, I think she was sadly past the point of no return by the sounds of things, some babies simply fail to thrive, but for future reference I would’ve got them separated much sooner. It likely wasn’t impaction but I will warn on that substrate it’s not impossible, it’s why coco coir and orchid bark/cypress mulch are recommended.

They would definitely encounter soil in the wild which is essentially what the coir is like, you have to bear in mind captive care vs the wild is night and day, we have to eliminate potential hazards they have no choice but to be exposed to 24/7 in captivity. For example they’d encounter moss in the wild, but if sat in front of it all day in captivity, it often peaks their interest to eat it and poses an impaction risk, in the wild they’d likely just walk past it.

Babies hatch out in undergrowth where things are very damp and humid, they aren’t out in the drier open until they’re bigger, they’d be too exposed to predators. It’s why in captivity we mimic the higher humidity they need which helps them grow out a lot smoother. 80+ is the goal for one as young as yours. Yeah humidity and correct lighting will help stop him pyramiding further.

So sorry again for your loss, you’re in my thoughts

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hi,

Some sad news, kiwi passed away. Just went to try feeding again and she is completely unresponsive. I'm so baffled. She was looking so much better, her eyes weren't sucken in or swollen, she was eating bits of the food I put in her mouth and drinking water fine, temperature has been consistent. I was trying to arrange a vet visit cause local vets aren't available but I had no idea her condition was this urgent. I've poured my heart and time in recently trying to get her everything she needs and watch her, bathe her, etc it's such ashame. I don't know what caused her death, she was just sat outside the basking ring after I had soaked her and I went to do some shopping and found her like this. I thought perhaps impaction but I don't see any other signs of it, she has lost some weight and her plastron was ever so slightly concaved but I've been trying to feed her bits of kale and weeds so surely not starvation... I don't know. Just sad it came to this.

I'll keep the points you've mentioned in mind for Goji and I'll try get the coco coir. I can't help but notice that it seems to be very different from what I'd imagine they'd roam on in nature? Wouldn't they encounter more clay-like landscape than softer coco texture and wouldn't it be drier? What humidity should I be aiming for then for Goji as well? And when you explained the pyramiding, is it just the humidity I need to change to prevent the pyramiding and I guess the bulb type too?

Thanks for all your help btw, I meant to reply to your last message but after responding to littleredfootbigredheart I had to go shopping. Your explanation of the bulbs was very informative.

Oh... I'm so sorry for little Kiwi. You did your best to improve her life. My condolences.

You are right that soils they live on in the wild are nowhere near to coco coir. It's clay, loam and sand mix. However, our small indoor enclosures are not the wild too - space is confined, no rains, substrate is shallow, food doesn't grow from the ground but lies on a plate, plants are less rich in fiber and so and so. We have to adjust some things that's been proven to be risky.

Yes, it's better to change the lamp to a floodlight. You can up humidity to 100% but spot bulb still will be very drying (rising it won't help because temperature will drop).

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Hi,

Some sad news, kiwi passed away. Just went to try feeding again and she is completely unresponsive. I'm so baffled. She was looking so much better, her eyes weren't sucken in or swollen, she was eating bits of the food I put in her mouth and drinking water fine, temperature has been consistent. I was trying to arrange a vet visit cause local vets aren't available but I had no idea her condition was this urgent. I've poured my heart and time in recently trying to get her everything she needs and watch her, bathe her, etc it's such ashame. I don't know what caused her death, she was just sat outside the basking ring after I had soaked her and I went to do some shopping and found her like this. I thought perhaps impaction but I don't see any other signs of it, she has lost some weight and her plastron was ever so slightly concaved but I've been trying to feed her bits of kale and weeds so surely not starvation... I don't know. Just sad it came to this.

I'll keep the points you've mentioned in mind for Goji and I'll try get the coco coir. I can't help but notice that it seems to be very different from what I'd imagine they'd roam on in nature? Wouldn't they encounter more clay-like landscape than softer coco texture and wouldn't it be drier? What humidity should I be aiming for then for Goji as well? And when you explained the pyramiding, is it just the humidity I need to change to prevent the pyramiding and I guess the bulb type too?

Thanks for all your help btw, I meant to reply to your last message but after responding to littleredfootbigredheart I had to go shopping. Your explanation of the bulbs was very informative.

I am so sorry for your loss