concern for my 4 month old sulcatas shell

[thadividedsky]

I have a 4 month old sulcata tortoise named Turbo whom I brought back to health and I believe he is doing great. However, I am concerned about the softness of his plastron. It's kinda soft and flexible and last week he peed gritty calcium, which caused me to cut down on how much calcium I've been giving him. I give him 12 hours of UVB from a powersun, his basking spot fluctuates between 95-100 degrees and his hide is about 80 degrees on a lower level. At night I keep humidity between 80-90% and the temp stays around 77 degrees. I soak him in the morning and when I get home from work for at most 10 minutes each, he takes big gulps of water and usually poops in his water and he climbs out when he's all set. His stool is mainly grass and firm. He has access to timothy hay and orchard hay as well as fresh water. Once a day I feed him a mix of finely chopped hay, a leafy green such as collard green or dandelion and a light dusting of repcal calcium powder with D3. He eats more hay than greens and he doesn't mind the calcium anymore. Um, activity-wise, he cruises around. He's very strong and alert with big beautiful black eyes and always clicking his beak, so he seems to be very happy. Am I doing everything right and should this be of concern to me? I nursed him back to health from an upper respiratory infection, could the soft shell be the result of that? Here are some pics of him, I think he's doing awesome, but the soft plastron has me worried.

 

[wellington]

I would recommend bumping up the night time temps to not go below 80. I would also not give calcium every day. They only need it one or two times a week. I have read before that it is pretty normal for a little one to be a little soft shell. However did it turn soft after being hard or has it been soft since you got him. Also giving you a bump so more will respond. Good luck

 

[thadividedsky]

I would recommend bumping up the night time temps to not go below 80. I would also not give calcium every day. They only need it one or two times a week. I have read before that it is pretty normal for a little one to be a little soft shell. However did it turn soft after being hard or has it been soft since you got him. Also giving you a bump so more will respond. Good luck

Thanks for the reply and bump. Soft doesn't seem the right word, pliable is more accurate. The top is hard and he has no trouble walking and isn't lethargic. He even pushes up when I rub him on the top of his head. But if I sit him on my hand, I can sorta feel the inhale when he breathes. I only noticed this today, so I'm hoping I'm just being a worried parent and nothing is wrong.

 

[cemmons12]

I would add a lot more diff. kinds of greens. Kale, spring mix, turnip, mustard, more time in the yard to eat if he yard is pesticide free!! Looks like a healthy tort tho!

 

[dmmj]

I would imagine the gritty calcium was actually urates, it is how they get rid of urine. If it was gritty he may be dehydrated. Regarding his shell, calcium and sunshine is the best way to harden it up

 

[thadividedsky]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Turbo has an appointment with 1 of the very few qualified herp vets in RI tomorrow. I called 16 clinics and only 1 has the ability to examine and treat my sully. He just got over the upper respiratory infection he had when I got him, now this. He was doing so great 3 days ago, now I fear he may not survive. There will be no sleep for me tonight. hopefully tomorrow I can post good news. Thanks again for everything, the help is greatly appreciated.

PS. I am bothered that there are so few vets in my area who are qualified to examine and treat reptiles, chelonians in particular. SO bothered that I am considering going to school and becoming a herp vet who specializes in chelonians. I know a lot of reptile owners where I live and a few have turtles and tortoises. There needs to be more qualified vets who can treat these animals, this may be my calling.

 

[Jacob]

I Wouldnt worry unless it gets worst and becomes super soft, just keep up the great work!
Once hes on a good diet temps are good, and he gets outside sometimes he will strive

 

[thadividedsky]

I Wouldnt worry unless it gets worst and becomes super soft, just keep up the great work!
Once hes on a good diet temps are good, and he gets outside sometimes he will strive

Thanks for the response Jacob. Sadly, his condition has worsened considerably since my original post. His shell overall has gone from hard, to soft and springy. I pray I'm just over-reacting. In the least he will meet his new primary and get a full exam.

 

[Laura]

have you changed his diet? ive never seen a hatchling eating dry hay before.. maybe its good he does..
eating is a good sign tho..

 

[lisalove]

have you changed his diet? ive never seen a hatchling eating dry hay before.. maybe its good he does..
eating is a good sign tho..

Ditto.
I also have to wonder if enough calcium powder is sticking to the dry hay.
Maybe you can soak it a bit first-just a thought. I too would add more greens.
Thinking of you tomorrow-let us know how the visit goes.

 

[EKLC]

How much sunlight does he get? Do you see him eat pieces with calcium?

You should switch to calcium WITHOUT vitamin D. Dietary vitamin D can be toxic in high doses and your tort should get it from UVB, not food. I would get your tortoise out for half an hour a day in the sunshine and get him on plain calcium

 

[dmmj]

Here is hoping he gets better, once they start going soft it is hard to reverse, but not impossible, will be hoping for good news.

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry to hear this. It sounds like you are doing just fine with your husbandry to me. How was turbo housed BEFORE you got her? What substrate? How often was she soaked?

I'll elaborate if you want me to, but I'm never sure if it's the right time for that sort of thing.

 

[thadividedsky]

have you changed his diet? ive never seen a hatchling eating dry hay before.. maybe its good he does..
eating is a good sign tho..

Ditto.
I also have to wonder if enough calcium powder is sticking to the dry hay.
Maybe you can soak it a bit first-just a thought. I too would add more greens.
Thinking of you tomorrow-let us know how the visit goes.

The hay that is in the enclosure has no calcium. I add the calcium into her daily hay/green mix and give a spray with filtered water. Then I dice it all up so that the scent from the fresh greens covers up the smell of the calcium. She also licks the juice off the rock, so very little calcium goes to waste. It's funny seeing a tortoise lick a rock. A behavior I need to record and post on youtube.

---

have you changed his diet? ive never seen a hatchling eating dry hay before.. maybe its good he does..
eating is a good sign tho..

I weened her off of lettuce onto a collard green dandelion mix and then slowly added in finely chopped hay. Then I slowly reduced the amount of greens while increasing the hay amount and now she eats the hay willingly. Sometimes she walks back and forth between the greens/hay/calcium mix and the regular hay mix. She has to work for it too, she has to walk down a ramp and then back around to the regular hay, then turn around and walk back up the ramp to the fresh mix.

---

How much sunlight does he get? Do you see him eat pieces with calcium?

You should switch to calcium WITHOUT vitamin D. Dietary vitamin D can be toxic in high doses and your tort should get it from UVB, not food. I would get your tortoise out for half an hour a day in the sunshine and get him on plain calcium

I use very small amounts of calcium with D3, her blood test results were perfect. I can't get her out in the sunshine until it warms up, it's in the 40's-50's here still. Once it's warm enough, we'll be out in the sun until it gets dark. We'll both get a tan :-D

---

Here is hoping he gets better, once they start going soft it is hard to reverse, but not impossible, will be hoping for good news.

Thanks for the well wishes. Much appreciated.

---

I'm sorry to hear this. It sounds like you are doing just fine with your husbandry to me. How was turbo housed BEFORE you got her? What substrate? How often was she soaked?

I'll elaborate if you want me to, but I'm never sure if it's the right time for that sort of thing.

Hi Tom, my name is Tommy. Anywho, my sully is doing great and my inexperience had me over concerned. When I got her, the breeder had her in a small plastic shoebox thingy, on top of alfalfa pellets and her diet mainly consisted of lettuce. He said to soak her for 20 minutes, twice a day. My vet and I went over everything and I'm making slight changes. Thanks for the support and compliment on the husbandry, it means a lot coming from such an experienced member such as yourself.

---

Alright folks, for the good news, Turbo is a girl. So I am changing her name to Turbette. For the better news, according to my new vet, my husbandry skills are excellent and this was the healthiest sulcata she has seen in her 30+ years of being a herp vet. For the great news, she has never seen such a young tortoise willingly eating hay, coming to the handler when called and giving what I call tortoise kisses. She kind of bites my nose and licks lol. It freaked me out the first time she did it, but it's cute. My vet dosn't like the ecoearth as a substrate since it's been getting in Turbettes eyes, which explains all the eye rubbing. I put down sphagnum moss and let it dry, now Turbette looks like she's in paradise. My vet also told me to keep humidity between 40-60% and a temp range of up to 105 on the hot side of the enclosure and as low as 70 on the coolside. Preferable temps would be 95-105 in the basking area and 75-85 on the cool side. I have to give her de-worming meds, I collected 1 of her poops from this morning and the vet ran tests on it. As for the shell, she said the bottom is supposed to be flexible. She's also got too much water in her, so I have to soak her for 10 minutes once a day now instead of twice. All in all, Turbette is in perfect health, no pyramiding, a little over hydrated which is easy to remedy and has a unique personality where she likes to bite table tops, kiss noses and come when her name is called. As for sunshine, once it's in the mid 70's, we'll be out in the sunshine every day that's not rainy/windy until it gets dark, even though it was recommended 30 minutes a day we'll get hours a day. Once I get my house, she'll have her own yard and a custom tortoise room in the basement. I want to thank everyone once again for the support and advise. Turbette and I are forever grateful for all the help. Oh, on a final note, my vet gave me 2 thumbs up on the enclosure minus the ecoearth. I tried repticarpet today and Turbette started biting it and attacking it, so I went and got moss to put on top of the ecoearth. What a difference in behavior, she loves the moss dry, dosn't like it moist. The cool thing is, with the moss in there, I am able to maintain humidity around 55% from a temp range between 80-95 degrees. The ecoearth under the moss is still moist, so I think the moss is reducing evaporation, thus leveling the humidity out. Sorry for the long post, but I figure the more info, the better just in case any new tort owners read this and are helped in some way. Last but not least, everyone loves pics and here are some showing the changes to her enclosure. The last 2 are of Turbette sleeping on her mopani driftwood for the first time. I love the foot sticking out, so cute.

 

[lisalove]

[quote
She's also got too much water in her, so I have to soak her for 10 minutes once a day now ... a little over hydrated which is easy to remedy...
[/quote]

Wait...what is that I hear??? I think it's Tom typing/pounding on the keyboard that there is no way to over hydrate! Funny how I can hear him typing from 30 miles away!!!
Take it away Tom
Hugs Tom!!!

 

[Tom]

I find your latest post interesting and very telling of the times we are in. 10 years ago, I never saw anyone arguing or disagreeing about how to care for sulcata babies. Everybody just kept them hot, dry, on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and soaked them once or twice a week. Now it seems like everybody has an opinion and they are all different.

I think what you and your vet have worked out is going to work fine, but you should know that your vet is just a person, who has an opinion like everyone else. Vets don't have a good track record on this forum or in my experience as an animal trainer for the last 20+ years. Doc Westin here on our forum is a notable exception, and your vet MIGHT be too. In most cases people who are "in" to tortoises are going to know more than a doctor who has to know a little bit about everything. I would take the advice of most of our senior members here about most tortoise related things over that of an "exotic animal vet" that I hardly know. Does your vet keep, raise and breed tortoises? If yes, then she probably really does have a leg to stand on. If not, I'd ask her what book she's reading out of and you can just get your own copy and eliminate the middle man... er... woman. Can she show you pics of hatchlings that she has raised using the methods she is advocating. I can show you lots of pictures. I just fear the outcome of people giving too much weight to someone's advice because they paid for it and the person has a d and a r in front of their name. I give credit where it is due, but I don't assume that all vets know everything. Experience has repeatedly taught me otherwise.


A few things:
1. I would not let the temp drop to 70 with humidity at night or any other time. 80 has been tested many times and has always worked.
2. You never mentioned the eye rubbing in your original post. Are you using one of those coil type UV bulbs? If yes, they can cause eye damage and we frequently see eye rubbing as a indicator of this. If you are not using one of those bulbs, then the simple solution is to pack the coir down with your hand, so that is is not so "loose". Your current solution should work fine for you too, but thought I'd mention the other techniques too.
3. Watch for signs of pyramiding very closely. I fear that in an open topped, relatively dry substrated enclosure with low humidity levels that you may start to see some pyramiding. Time will tell, but if you start seeing heavy ridges forming around the scutes, at least post some pics so we can give you a second opinion on it. Pyramiding can be stopped, and it is easier to stop if you catch it early.
4. Do you have a proper humid hide box? A real one made from a plastic shoe box or something similar. I don't see one in your pics. Having one will make your current set up and plan of action much more likely to succeed.
5. Hay is a more appropriate food for older, bigger sulcatas. A baby should be getting more fresh food in my opinion. There are lots of weeds and leaves to feed, not to mention some grocery store stuff too. I grow fresh grass for mine and I feed chopped tender young grass as part of a varied diet to all my hatchlings. I fear that dry hay as a large portion of the diet, might not give your tortoise what he needs.
6. Lisalove is correct. I don't think they can be "over hydrated". Just like you, if you drank more water than you needed in a day, you would just pee more. Putting them in a soak does not over hydrate them and they often don't even drink during their soaks anyway. Having said all of that, once a day for ten minutes should be fine, but 30-40 minutes won't hurt anything either. In most cases soaking twice a day is not necessary, but it certainly won't hurt anything either. I sometimes soak twice in a day during our very hot, very dry summers. Once before their sunning session and again after. Most of the year, I just soak once a day.

With the exception of the low temps recommended, I don't think any thing you and your vet have decided on will hurt anything. I bring these things up just for the sake of discussion and education. We have all had different experiences, and I am relating what I have learned from mine. One thing that is very clear is that you love your tortoise and want to do the best possible job of taking care of her. I find that highly commendable and wish you the best of luck. I would love it if you kept us updated on how it all goes for the next few months at least, and we can all learn from your experience.

 

[thadividedsky]

I find your latest post interesting and very telling of the times we are in. 10 years ago, I never saw anyone arguing or disagreeing about how to care for sulcata babies. Everybody just kept them hot, dry, on rabbit pellets with no water bowl and soaked them once or twice a week. Now it seems like everybody has an opinion and they are all different.

I think what you and your vet have worked out is going to work fine, but you should know that your vet is just a person, who has an opinion like everyone else. Vets don't have a good track record on this forum or in my experience as an animal trainer for the last 20+ years. Doc Westin here on our forum is a notable exception, and your vet MIGHT be too. In most cases people who are "in" to tortoises are going to know more than a doctor who has to know a little bit about everything. I would take the advice of most of our senior members here about most tortoise related things over that of an "exotic animal vet" that I hardly know. Does your vet keep, raise and breed tortoises? If yes, then she probably really does have a leg to stand on. If not, I'd ask her what book she's reading out of and you can just get your own copy and eliminate the middle man... er... woman. Can she show you pics of hatchlings that she has raised using the methods she is advocating. I can show you lots of pictures. I just fear the outcome of people giving too much weight to someone's advice because they paid for it and the person has a d and a r in front of their name. I give credit where it is due, but I don't assume that all vets know everything. Experience has repeatedly taught me otherwise.


A few things:
1. I would not let the temp drop to 70 with humidity at night or any other time. 80 has been tested many times and has always worked.
2. You never mentioned the eye rubbing in your original post. Are you using one of those coil type UV bulbs? If yes, they can cause eye damage and we frequently see eye rubbing as a indicator of this. If you are not using one of those bulbs, then the simple solution is to pack the coir down with your hand, so that is is not so "loose". Your current solution should work fine for you too, but thought I'd mention the other techniques too.
3. Watch for signs of pyramiding very closely. I fear that in an open topped, relatively dry substrated enclosure with low humidity levels that you may start to see some pyramiding. Time will tell, but if you start seeing heavy ridges forming around the scutes, at least post some pics so we can give you a second opinion on it. Pyramiding can be stopped, and it is easier to stop if you catch it early.
4. Do you have a proper humid hide box? A real one made from a plastic shoe box or something similar. I don't see one in your pics. Having one will make your current set up and plan of action much more likely to succeed.
5. Hay is a more appropriate food for older, bigger sulcatas. A baby should be getting more fresh food in my opinion. There are lots of weeds and leaves to feed, not to mention some grocery store stuff too. I grow fresh grass for mine and I feed chopped tender young grass as part of a varied diet to all my hatchlings. I fear that dry hay as a large portion of the diet, might not give your tortoise what he needs.
6. Lisalove is correct. I don't think they can be "over hydrated". Just like you, if you drank more water than you needed in a day, you would just pee more. Putting them in a soak does not over hydrate them and they often don't even drink during their soaks anyway. Having said all of that, once a day for ten minutes should be fine, but 30-40 minutes won't hurt anything either. In most cases soaking twice a day is not necessary, but it certainly won't hurt anything either. I sometimes soak twice in a day during our very hot, very dry summers. Once before their sunning session and again after. Most of the year, I just soak once a day.

With the exception of the low temps recommended, I don't think any thing you and your vet have decided on will hurt anything. I bring these things up just for the sake of discussion and education. We have all had different experiences, and I am relating what I have learned from mine. One thing that is very clear is that you love your tortoise and want to do the best possible job of taking care of her. I find that highly commendable and wish you the best of luck. I would love it if you kept us updated on how it all goes for the next few months at least, and we can all learn from your experience.

Thanks for all the advise Tom and I apologize for the late response as I recently got a Gecko from someone who was having trouble caring for it. I took it off her hands because she was freaking out and thought it was going to die.

I agree that there are so many different things I've been told and it has at times had me wondering if anyone knew how to raise Sulcatas. The best advise and info is on here, I even pointed my vet to this forum after she gave me a big pamphlet of info from anapcid.com, "homework" to read up on. Onto Turbette (I still say turbo and have thought of just sticking with that, she dosn't respond to turbette unlike when I say turbo). The eye rubbing has been reduced, I mist much more now. I also switched over to a powersun MVB a month or so ago, the coil UV light had me worried. My vet wanted me to try newspaper or repti-carpet in place of the coir and my sully did not like either of those 1 bit. She would try to dig, then look at me and walk back to her basking level and not return down to the lower level. So I put the coir back in and she was happy again, walking around, smelling everything and clicking her beak and wagging that stubby lil tail of hers. After reading your suggestions and with my experience raising geckos, I made a humidity chamber for Turbette just like I did with Maxine-the leopard gecko. She has access to 3 different fresh hay bowls and once a day I offer her fresh dandelion and collard greens mixed with fresh grass and a very light dusting of calcium with D3. She nibbles on the cuttlebone now, so that's a plus. I soak her for 5 minutes in the morning and 5 minutes when I get home from work and she gulps down water during each soaking, she'll lower her head and you can see her gulping the water down (is that normal? She almost always poops during soaking as well.). Downside to that is she's peed on me a few times now lol. She now has a hide up on the basking level as well as a hide on the lower level. I observed her basking for about an hour at a time, and then sleeping in the log cave for about 30 minutes. She goes back and forth. From time to time she'll go down to the lower level and eat some hay and to my surprise, even soak herself by climbing into the water bowl and sitting there for a little while. She hasn't really grown much since I got her, but she is slowly gaining weight. She's my little piggy when it comes to feeding time, if she finishes it all and looks for more, I make more for her. I believe she knows how much she needs and I'm not worried about her eating too much. Oh, before I forget, I don't let the temps get below 77 on the lower level and have a CHE over the humidity chamber so that it doesn't drop below 80, it averages 85 degrees and 90% humidity, just like Maxine's humidity chamber. I'll post pics so you can get an idea of my setup and will include some pics of the gecko I rescued. I want to thank everyone again for all the help.

I add water to the tortoise pellet and then dry it out so it won't mold. She prefers this over grass and hay since it's fine enough for her to eat, she still has trouble with anything longer than 1/2 inch. I'll take some of the dried pellet, mix in some hay, dandelion green and collard green with a fingernail amount of calcium with D3. She usually eats it all and if she looks for more, I give her more dandelion and collard green as a treat for eating her fiber . No fruits or lettuce for her and on occasion, she'll get a mustard green leaf. I avoid it due to it inhibiting calcium absorption. Once a weak I'll buy her a rose for an extra special treat. The last pic was taken right before posting this reply, it's a closeup of her in her humidity chamber.

This is Maxine. A female tremper albino leopard gecko.

I had to give Turbette her second dose of de-wormer and she's doing wonderful. Lately we've stared out the window wondering when the temps would stay above 75. Our weather this year is totally off :-(.