Climate Comparison

[P Birch]

Russian tortoise ecology is so interesting. One frequently encounters the 3-months-up, 9-months-down information. So much must happen during that 3 month window! Their interactions with and adaptations to their environment is fascinating. A representative study:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236981944_A_short_spring_before_a_long_jump_the_ecological_challenge_to_the_steppe_tortoise_Testudo_horsfieldii

It's noted that during those favorable spring months, unfavorable conditions can obviously still arise, driving the tortoises back underground.

Some quoted snippets:

“completely diurnal”

“Assuming that tortoises are out of the burrow for 5 h/day (Fig. 4, Table 3), we estimate the annual time spent above ground by an individual steppe tortoise to be about 325 h/year. This is only 3.4% of the 8760 h in a year. In summer, fall, and winter, environmental conditions are very hot, very dry, and very cold, respectively. Only one tortoise was seen active during those seasons over a year of continuous observation.”

“Overall, nearly all of the marked steppe tortoises remained underground, buried in the sandy soil, for 9 consecutive months. Although our observations may not apply to all populations of steppe tortoises, we believe that they represent a typical situation. Our study site is situated in the middle of the geographic distribution of this species, and in the typical habitat. Sporadic activity by a few individuals may occur in fall or winter, as has been documented for other populations of T. horsfieldi…”

“The mating season starts immediately after females emerge and lasts only 3 weeks. We observed a female that emerged from hibernation to be immediately courted by a male; thus, her first activity after 9 months of inactivity was copulation. Mating immediately following prolonged hibernation (8-9 months) has also been observed in snakes living in cold climates, such as adders (Vipera berus) living in the cool regions of Europe and in Canadian garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis) (Gregory 1977; Luiselli 1995).”

I've had fun comparing my climate here in central New York State to entries encountered on iNaturalist. My adopted Russian tortoise, I think, is the kazachstanica subspecies, so I tend to focus on the Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan entries.

Observations

Observations of Afghan Tortoise

www.inaturalist.org

When one looks at the range of average high and average low temperatures generally encountered in March, April, and May in representative locations in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, you're looking at mid-30s (Fahrenheit) to mid-80s. June, July, and August there see average highs in the mid and upper 90s and lows in the 70s. The tortoises look to escape that heat and the accompanying decline in vegetation.

For me, that mid-30s to mid-80s range--the March-April-May period where I'm looking in Asia--is a very different window of time. It's typically some time in mid to late April through to some time in October. And with ample precipitation here, there is not the same decline in herbaceous vegetation. So a Russian tortoise living outdoors in upstate New York has a dramatically longer above ground activity period, which I've certainly experienced. There's no environmental push to aestivate here. The central Asian late April / May is simply our summer.

The Tortoise Forum: where random thoughts that nobody in my orbit really wants to hear can go!

Do folks keeping Russian tortoises in the southwest and southeast experience different summer behavior from their outdoor tortoises?

 

[Tom]

You can post wherever you want. It makes sense to put this in the Russian section. It could also go in the general tortoise discussion area, or the debatable section if you want to talk more about it and here differing view points on a subject.

This is an interesting topic and it makes me think of a few implications. Many a tortoise has been made sick or killed because someone studied the words of a person who went to the natural range and typed up their opinions and observations. The thing is that our back yards are not the wild. Keeping desert tortoises in what we think of as desert conditions usually kills them, for one example. I think it is wonderful to read and study and learn everything we can about how they live in the wild and apply the elements of what we learn that are beneficial.

Well what and who determines which parts are "beneficial"? My cautionary tale is this: Don't ignore decades of first hand experience with tortoises in our captive environments because of what someone with all the normal human biases and feelings wrote in book or paper based on limited observations. Do take in that knowledge and innovate and experiment where you think it will be helpful to your tortoise, but understand that our perceptions of the wild are lacking, and our attempts to imitate what we think is happening in the wild often lead to dismal results. An example of what I mean: Some tortoises live in sandy areas in the wild, so a conscientious thoughtful tortoise keeper provides this element of the wild for them in their backyard and then the tortoise dies of sand impaction a few months or years later. Or: wild desert tortoises can go 9 months with zero water some years. A thoughtful keeper read somewhere that too much water can upset their "water balance" and so they keep this desert adapted animal on the dry side without too much water. Death from dehydration related complications follows relatively soon. Our above ground temperatures and conditions are NOT what a wild desert tortoise would experience deep underground in the wild.

We should all consider those tid bits of information about the wild, but much more weight should be given to what we know succeeds or fails in captive conditions based on decades of trial and error and experimentation by many.

Another factor that @Markw84 has elaborated on is that our planet is ever changing. The Sahara desert was a lush jungle not long ago, and probably a frozen tundra at some point before or after that. The surviving tortoise species have adapted and found ways to cope with the current conditions that they find themselves in, and may or may not have evolved with originally in their history. So because Russians continue to survive in Kazakhstan, and California desert tortoise manage to survive in the California desert, does not mean that those conditions are ideal for them, or that they originally evolved to deal with those conditions way back in their history. We know that hydrating desert tortoise babies helps them to thrive as it does every other species. We know that depriving Russians or desert tortoises of water, or simply not ensuring that they stay well hydrated one way or another, will likely result in a large bladder stone forming and lead to their death. How do they survive in the wild with little or no water, but die in captive conditions with the same lack of water? Many factors at work there and it could be argued and debated all day, but the bottom line is this: We know they survive that way in the wild, and we also know they don't survive that way in captivity. So learn about the wild, but still soak your Russian and keep it hydrated and within the optimal temperature range for the species that we know not from studying wild conditions, but from studying what captive conditions work the best.

 

[Markw84]

We know they survive that way in the wild, and we also know they don't survive that way in captivity.

We also know that the vast majority - over 95% of the tortoises die in the wild. The habitats they now find themselves in just may not be that good at all for them!

 

[P Birch]

This is an interesting topic and it makes me think of a few implications. Many a tortoise has been made sick or killed because someone studied the words of a person who went to the natural range and typed up their opinions and observations. The thing is that our back yards are not the wild. Keeping desert tortoises in what we think of as desert conditions usually kills them, for one example. I think it is wonderful to read and study and learn everything we can about how they live in the wild and apply the elements of what we learn that are beneficial.

We should all consider those tid bits of information about the wild, but much more weight should be given to what we know succeeds or fails in captive conditions based on decades of trial and error and experimentation by many.

Good stuff: the in-depth elaboration is appreciated.

The two passages I replicated from your post above feel quite wise. I at least read them a couple times!

I find it fascinating that a Russian tortoise's above-ground activity window could literally double a hemisphere away.

 

[P Birch]

We also know that the vast majority - over 95% of the tortoises die in the wild. The habitats they now find themselves in just may not be that good at all for them!

A tragic fact.

 

[Tom]

Good stuff: the in-depth elaboration is appreciated.

The two passages I replicated from your post above feel quite wise. I at least read them a couple times!

I find it fascinating that a Russian tortoise's above-ground activity window could literally double a hemisphere away.

This is common. I have a friend who does tortoise research in Senegal. He was born and raised there and has been observing wild sulcatas his whole life. He consulted and helped the author of the best sulcata book ever written called "The Crying Tortoise".

He related a story to me of one of his first visits to the USA when viewing a large tortoise collection featuring several sulcatas. He looked at them walking around their pen doing their daily tortoise business and he asked his host, "How do you make them do that?" His host replied, "Do what?" He said, "Walk around all day above ground out in the open like that." The host shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know what you mean. This is just what they do..."

Apparently, in the wild, sulcatas spend 95% of their lives underground, and rarely come out into the open above ground. My Senegalese friend told me, "I can take you to the areas where sulcatas live in the wild and you could walk by a dozen of them and you would never know they were there."

I saw hints of this every summer when I let mine make 22 foot long burrows in their pens. They went from being the most outgoing nosey friendly pets to being almost feral in their behavior when sitting at the mouth of their burrows.

 

[Anastasia 22]

Russian tortoise ecology is so interesting. One frequently encounters the 3-months-up, 9-months-down information. So much must happen during that 3 month window! Their interactions with and adaptations to their environment is fascinating. A representative study:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236981944_A_short_spring_before_a_long_jump_the_ecological_challenge_to_the_steppe_tortoise_Testudo_horsfieldii

It's noted that during those favorable spring months, unfavorable conditions can obviously still arise, driving the tortoises back underground.

Some quoted snippets:

“completely diurnal”

“Assuming that tortoises are out of the burrow for 5 h/day (Fig. 4, Table 3), we estimate the annual time spent above ground by an individual steppe tortoise to be about 325 h/year. This is only 3.4% of the 8760 h in a year. In summer, fall, and winter, environmental conditions are very hot, very dry, and very cold, respectively. Only one tortoise was seen active during those seasons over a year of continuous observation.”

“Overall, nearly all of the marked steppe tortoises remained underground, buried in the sandy soil, for 9 consecutive months. Although our observations may not apply to all populations of steppe tortoises, we believe that they represent a typical situation. Our study site is situated in the middle of the geographic distribution of this species, and in the typical habitat. Sporadic activity by a few individuals may occur in fall or winter, as has been documented for other populations of T. horsfieldi…”

“The mating season starts immediately after females emerge and lasts only 3 weeks. We observed a female that emerged from hibernation to be immediately courted by a male; thus, her first activity after 9 months of inactivity was copulation. Mating immediately following prolonged hibernation (8-9 months) has also been observed in snakes living in cold climates, such as adders (Vipera berus) living in the cool regions of Europe and in Canadian garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis) (Gregory 1977; Luiselli 1995).”

I've had fun comparing my climate here in central New York State to entries encountered on iNaturalist. My adopted Russian tortoise, I think, is the kazachstanica subspecies, so I tend to focus on the Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan entries.

Observations

Observations of Afghan Tortoise

www.inaturalist.org

When one looks at the range of average high and average low temperatures generally encountered in March, April, and May in representative locations in Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, you're looking at mid-30s (Fahrenheit) to mid-80s. June, July, and August there see average highs in the mid and upper 90s and lows in the 70s. The tortoises look to escape that heat and the accompanying decline in vegetation.

For me, that mid-30s to mid-80s range--the March-April-May period where I'm looking in Asia--is a very different window of time. It's typically some time in mid to late April through to some time in October. And with ample precipitation here, there is not the same decline in herbaceous vegetation. So a Russian tortoise living outdoors in upstate New York has a dramatically longer above ground activity period, which I've certainly experienced. There's no environmental push to aestivate here. The central Asian late April / May is simply our summer.

The Tortoise Forum: where random thoughts that nobody in my orbit really wants to hear can go!

Do folks keeping Russian tortoises in the southwest and southeast experience different summer behavior from their outdoor tortoises?

It was last summer. +105F+110F for almost two months in a row. I didn't let my Russians stay outside since they couldn't borrow...

 

[P Birch]

It was last summer. +105F+110F for almost two months in a row. I didn't let my Russians stay outside since they couldn't borrow...

That photo speaks volumes!
100+ for that span of time is difficult for me to wrap my head around. I hope this year has been better for you and tortoises alike.

 

[Anastasia 22]

That photo speaks volumes!
100+ for that span of time is difficult for me to wrap my head around. I hope this year has been better for you and tortoises alike.

Thank you!
It's little bit cooler this year but it was lots of unexpected storms and floods. ....

 

[P Birch]

This is common. I have a friend who does tortoise research in Senegal. He was born and raised there and has been observing wild sulcatas his whole life. He consulted and helped the author of the best sulcata book ever written called "The Crying Tortoise".

He related a story to me of one of his first visits to the USA when viewing a large tortoise collection featuring several sulcatas. He looked at them walking around their pen doing their daily tortoise business and he asked his host, "How do you make them do that?" His host replied, "Do what?" He said, "Walk around all day above ground out in the open like that." The host shrugged his shoulders and said, "I don't know what you mean. This is just what they do..."

Apparently, in the wild, sulcatas spend 95% of their lives underground, and rarely come out into the open above ground. My Senegalese friend told me, "I can take you to the areas where sulcatas live in the wild and you could walk by a dozen of them and you would never know they were there."

I saw hints of this every summer when I let mine make 22 foot long burrows in their pens. They went from being the most outgoing nosey friendly pets to being almost feral in their behavior when sitting at the mouth of their burrows.

That's an interesting anecdote, speaking to this theme. I will have to look into The Crying Tortoise.

Today our tortoise was behaving just as he did in May. In central Asia on August 8, he'd be 2 months into aestivation.

22' burrows! What an endeavor.

 

[mark1]

if it wasn't for the people studying these animals in their natural environments, the "experts" wouldn't have a clue where to start.........

if they're not out , conditions dictate they not be out, if they're out conditions dictate they're out, regardless of where they are in the world...... captivity is no way to "study" what they need, or what is normal....... very few people have kept these animals for their natural lifespan, they can take decades to kill with the most horrible of care, so successful is tough to realistically claim for just about anybody....... but when they find an 80yr old tortoise or turtle in the wild, that animal was successful......

nowhere in the world is the climate/environment these guys live in stable, there are no stable "micro-climates" for them..... your backyard has more capability of being the wild than any indoor enclosure i've ever seen......

imo, what your looking at and doing is exactly the correct way to understand what these animals need, and what is normal....... comparable climates often have different extremes, those need accounted for ...... sometimes a comparable climate will have lesser extremes than the one your dealing with, in that case the animal has it made.........