Cherryhead mixes

[allegraf]

Here are some of the pics of my grandmother's mutts. Mom was a redfoot and dad a runt cherryhead. We did not expect them to be able to breed, but my grandmother seems to love them just the same. She is vetting her neighbors to see if they make good homes. She already gave away 2 and she has 6 left.

Here is a pic of five of their plastrons: ( must have left one out!)

This one has the darkest plastron and a kind of bulbous nose. He is also the one that looks the most like a cherryhead. When they all hatched they were all the same color (head and legs) Now that they are growing, the heads are lightening up and the legs are staying red.

---

Here are the two we bought as babies on the net. The pics that were taken showed the torts as having the same color head and legs. As they matured, the legs stayed red and the heads started lightening up. Also, once we got them the plastrons were not as dark as expected. They are lovely torts, that will remain pets with no plans on breeding.

 

[Nay]

Your grandmothers mutts!!
Very cute.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

They may not be Show Quality but they are still very attractive little munchkins!

I hope your grandma finds good homes for all of them.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Allegra these do have "cherryhead" blood in them - as seen by the plastron pattern developing -

These all hatched from the same Brazilian female.. unknown males -

I'll talk about the 'split-scute' in the "PIP" thread - hatched 8/09 -

The female -

There have been a few "not-as-purty" also.

She'll come 'clean' sooner or later...

NERD

 

[Jacqui]

I don't care if they are "mutts" are not, they are all beauties and will make fine tortoises for some lucky people.

Open question here: if you have a female who lays a clutch and if even one of them starts looking like a mix, doesn't that mean the whole clutch should be considered mix? Can't even what look to be pure have just a trace of mix in them? Even if the eggs were fertilized by more then one male, could not the female actually be a recessive gene carrier?

 

[Bryan]

I don't care if they are "mutts" are not, they are all beauties and will make fine tortoises for some lucky people.

Open question here: if you have a female who lays a clutch and if even one of them starts looking like a mix, doesn't that mean the whole clutch should be considered mix? Can't even what look to be pure have just a trace of mix in them? Even if the eggs were fertilized by more then one male, could not the female actually be a recessive gene carrier?

Jacqui, I believe that each egg could be fertilized from a different male, however if you have a mix in the clutch, I would not consider any of the babies "pure" unless they were genetically tested. They COULD be, but like you said they may not be. Sometimes hybrids pull most of their traits from one side so it's hard to say for sure. All the more reason to keep different locales separate so that there's no confusion or accidental hybridization.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

And something that was mentioned earlier also --- unless you were there when the boat came in.. finding 'pure' Northern locales is virtually impossible because of the 1000's that have been imported over the past 4 decades! Most of the 'locales' are closed for exportation.. now with "farms" as the source.

I spoke with someone a few minutes ago and we agreed that a clutch could have "pure" and "mixed".. together. Some could be pure! So there are always two ways to look at every situation.

Has anyone done testing? NO! I wonder why?

Terry K

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I think that the "not-as-purty" ones are the most endearing Like "uggly ducklings"

 

[Bryan]

Terry, if someone is looking at PURE Brazilians, the best way to do so is to make sure that you buy them from someone that has PURE males and females that are kept together, not Brazilians mixed with Northerns, Gran Chaco's, and Brazilians in a single pen. It is POSSIBLE that there would be some that are pure mixed in with some that are not, however if it is your intent to have PURE animals, that is not the smartest way to go about buying them. However if someone wants a single animals and could care less, there's no problem because either way they picked an animal that they like.

As for the testing, it's expensive and unnecessary when the animals are NOT put into a situation where hybridization is possible or worse yet, encouraged. IMO there is enough diversity in terms of color, personality, etc. in these animals that hybridization should not be encouraged.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry, if someone is looking at PURE Brazilians, the best way to do so is to make sure that you buy them from someone that has PURE males and females that are kept together, not Brazilians mixed with Northerns, Gran Chaco's, and Brazilians in a single pen. It is POSSIBLE that there would be some that are pure mixed in with some that are not, however if it is your intent to have PURE animals, that is not the smartest way to go about buying them. However if someone wants a single animals and could care less, there's no problem because either way they picked an animal that they like.

As for the testing, it's expensive and unnecessary when the animals are NOT put into a situation where hybridization is possible or worse yet, encouraged. IMO there is enough diversity in terms of color, personality, etc. in these animals that hybridization should not be encouraged.

This may be considered "off-topic" -

So Bryan what you are saying is that you are having a problem with the fact that I put my different locales/ssp(?) together for 2 years while my male 'cherryheads' were growing up and have now separated them and am now waiting for the "sperm-bank" to clean up?

As for the testing.. that is to establish that "cherryheads" are a sub-species of carbonaria - what did you think I meant?

I'm curious what your experience with redfoot tortoises is Bryan?.. that is a fair question isn't it?

Back "on-topic" -

As I recall this thread is about Cherryhead mixes.. so I'm showing and telling about a few of mine - anyone else?

Terry K

 

[Bryan]

Terry, if someone is looking at PURE Brazilians, the best way to do so is to make sure that you buy them from someone that has PURE males and females that are kept together, not Brazilians mixed with Northerns, Gran Chaco's, and Brazilians in a single pen. It is POSSIBLE that there would be some that are pure mixed in with some that are not, however if it is your intent to have PURE animals, that is not the smartest way to go about buying them. However if someone wants a single animals and could care less, there's no problem because either way they picked an animal that they like.

As for the testing, it's expensive and unnecessary when the animals are NOT put into a situation where hybridization is possible or worse yet, encouraged. IMO there is enough diversity in terms of color, personality, etc. in these animals that hybridization should not be encouraged.

This may be considered "off-topic" -

So Bryan what you are saying is that you are having a problem with the fact that I put my different locales/ssp(?) together for 2 years while my male 'cherryheads' were growing up and have now separated them and am now waiting for the "sperm-bank" to clean up?

As for the testing.. that is to establish that "cherryheads" are a sub-species of carbonaria - what did you think I meant?

I'm curious what your experience with redfoot tortoises is Bryan?.. that is a fair question isn't it?

Back "on-topic" -

As I recall this thread is about Cherryhead mixes.. so I'm showing and telling about a few of mine - anyone else?

Terry K

I do indeed think that it is not a good idea to have done what you did and cross Northerns and Brazilians. I do however commend you for selling them for what they are and being honest about it. My experience with redfoots and torts in general is minimal, however my experience with animals has been life long and most times hybridization is not the greatest thing to do for a number of reasons.

Here is when it is beneficial: superior growth (for food animals/plants), superior color (for hobbyists, not for wild animals), determining higher male sex ratios (for food animals), genetic diversity from genetically bottle necked species, etc. I see no benefit from hybridizing 2 different types of redfoots when there is already so much diversity between Northern, Brazillian, and Gran Chaco redfoots. However if ones purpose is simply to make as much money on the animals as possible and treat them as a money making commodity I could see why someone would be eager to breed an of age female. However I would rather see them wait until they had the proper mate instead of just jumping the gun and basically taking the puppy mill approach to breeding at all costs instead of breeding to improve the breed.

This is the equivalent of buying a papered German Shepherd and breeding it with a Golden Retriever because you couldn't find a Shepherd stud, except that in this case there's sperm retention and no one knows for sure when you might actually get pure animals.

While your "sperm bank" cleans up, many mixes will be put into the hands of people and chances are that someone will take these mixes, back cross them to a cherryhead and then sell them as "pure" because not everyone is as honest as you are. That is not a contribution that I'd indirectly want to make to the tortoise community.

 

[Yvonne G]

Be careful...and remember the guidelines for posting on the forum.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Be careful...and remember the guidelines for posting on the forum.

Thank you Yvonne.. it appears Bryan is stretching an analogy a wee bit to say the least. A person that makes a simple honest mistake is now responsible for some greedy dishonest individual? Sorry gang.. that first started in the carbonaria world shortly after the first "cherryhead" tortoise hit the shores of Florida.. be assured!

This thread is about PICTURES primarily isn't it?

Terry K

---

Aug. '08 hatchling -

Unfortunately.. "most" babies of any species never make it to adult breeding age. And the poor soul that actually thinks there is $$$ in breeding "designer" redfoots???

It has taten me at least 8 - 10 years to have my '98 hatchling 'northerns' pay for their upkeep.. LAST year! What about those other 10 years?

And indeed.. I have no ill feelings toward anyones responses in any of my threads........

Terry K

 

[Jacqui]

I spoke with someone a few minutes ago and we agreed that a clutch could have "pure" and "mixed".. together. Some could be pure! So there are always two ways to look at every situation.
Terry K

I haven't yet read the rest of the thread, but wanted to ask this...if in a clutch you have some that appear mixed...how would you know that it's not the female carrying the gene of mixed blood? Can she not look "pure", but herself be mixed? Even if you know where a certain animal came from, even then she or he could have been the result of a mixture happening naturally in the wild, correct?

Thinking of Lonesome George and how they only could tell the correct species was by DNA.


Added note: Okay I just read the thread about the Pip, and see this talk is getting a bit into the debate tone. So I am asking for all of us (me included) to move this talk to the debate area. Sound good to everybody?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I spoke with someone a few minutes ago and we agreed that a clutch could have "pure" and "mixed".. together. Some could be pure! So there are always two ways to look at every situation.
Terry K

I haven't yet read the rest of the thread, but wanted to ask this...if in a clutch you have some that appear mixed...how would you know that it's not the female carrying the gene of mixed blood? Can she not look "pure", but herself be mixed? Even if you know where a certain animal came from, even then she or he could have been the result of a mixture happening naturally in the wild, correct?

Thinking of Lonesome George and how they only could tell the correct species was by DNA.


Added note: Okay I just read the thread about the Pip, and see this talk is getting a bit into the debate tone. So I am asking for all of us (me included) to move this talk to the debate area. Sound good to everybody?

When you read the "PIP" thread you will read and see that the head patterns came from a Northern male from eggs laid by Northern females. That pattern has never shown in any [ of my ] 'cherryhead' eggs until now.

Is it possible to have "mixed" blood in the wild.. probly! BUT then that doesn't give anyone hope of getting pure.. does it? I have always said "To know the counterfeit.. first you have to know the real"!

Jacqui neither of these threads [ mine anyway ] was intended to debate the lack of wisdom or greed involved with 'cross-breeding'... this thread is "what a 'mix' looks like and how can you tell" - that's been my approach and interpretation anyway.

And as I have said on my "PIP" thread.. they can debate all they want.

Let's get back "on topic"?

Terry K

 

[Jacqui]

Jacqui neither of these threads [ mine anyway ] was intended to debate the lack of wisdom or greed involved with 'cross-breeding'... this thread is "what a 'mix' looks like and how can you tell" - that's been my approach and interpretation anyway.

And as I have said on my "PIP" thread.. they can debate all they want.

Let's get back "on topic"?

Terry K

I am so very sorry Terry, I guess silly stupid me just thought we were showing mix breeds and so the topic was mixes and what qualifies as such. From now on I guess I should limit myself to just saying how pretty the tortoises are, not ask questions to gain any useful knowledge. I wasn't "debating" anything, sorry that you took a general question as some debate against your ethics or something. To me the question was furthering the part of "how can you tell", which IS part of what you yourself said this thread was about.

 

[Bryan]

Jacqui neither of these threads [ mine anyway ] was intended to debate the lack of wisdom or greed involved with 'cross-breeding'... this thread is "what a 'mix' looks like and how can you tell" - that's been my approach and interpretation anyway.

And as I have said on my "PIP" thread.. they can debate all they want.

Let's get back "on topic"?

Terry K

I am so very sorry Terry, I guess silly stupid me just thought we were showing mix breeds and so the topic was mixes and what qualifies as such. From now on I guess I should limit myself to just saying how pretty the tortoises are, not ask questions to gain any useful knowledge. I wasn't "debating" anything, sorry that you took a general question as some debate against your ethics or something. To me the question was furthering the part of "how can you tell", which IS part of what you yourself said this thread was about.

I like to learn all that I can about these torts, and in the limited time that I have worked with these animals I find their diversity simply amazing. In all due respect to Sulcata's and other beautiful tortoises in their own rites, it could easily be argued that Redfoots have among the highest diversity in terms of scale and shell color in the tortoise world within every "type" of redfoot. If you want to promote a trait, you do what is called line breeding, you select animals with a specific desirable trait or traits and you breed for them. A perfect example would be Allegra's high orange Cherryheads, look at her offspring they are very distinct.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Jacqui neither of these threads [ mine anyway ] was intended to debate the lack of wisdom or greed involved with 'cross-breeding'... this thread is "what a 'mix' looks like and how can you tell" - that's been my approach and interpretation anyway.

And as I have said on my "PIP" thread.. they can debate all they want.

Let's get back "on topic"?

Terry K

I am so very sorry Terry, I guess silly stupid me just thought we were showing mix breeds and so the topic was mixes and what qualifies as such. From now on I guess I should limit myself to just saying how pretty the tortoises are, not ask questions to gain any useful knowledge. I wasn't "debating" anything, sorry that you took a general question as some debate against your ethics or something. To me the question was furthering the part of "how can you tell", which IS part of what you yourself said this thread was about.

Jacqui you don't have to do that "silly stupid me".. that wasn't needed.

Actually Allegra didn't make any reference to "how can you tell", here. I did on my "PIP" thread because it was brought up there. I was mistaken when I stated that's how I interpreted this thread. My apologies!

My only "how can you tell" definition was:

I can only go by what I've experienced/seen from mainly Northern redfoots. When I see characteristics that repeat themselves from eggs laid by different females that tells me it is the males that are responsible. Then when I see that characteristic show up in a 'cherryhead' egg that tells me that one of the Northern males is responsible. That's as far as I can go with it.. I don't know anything about all this gene stuff - seriously. SOOOOO if you want to start or carry your Q?'s over to a 'debate' topic that's fine with me.. but I won't have anything to say about it.. because I don't know anything about it!

It doesn't matter to me how anyone feels about "cross-breeding" or however you define "hybrid". You can debate it if you like..

Terry K

---

Jacqui neither of these threads [ mine anyway ] was intended to debate the lack of wisdom or greed involved with 'cross-breeding'... this thread is "what a 'mix' looks like and how can you tell" - that's been my approach and interpretation anyway.

And as I have said on my "PIP" thread.. they can debate all they want.

Let's get back "on topic"?

Terry K

I am so very sorry Terry, I guess silly stupid me just thought we were showing mix breeds and so the topic was mixes and what qualifies as such. From now on I guess I should limit myself to just saying how pretty the tortoises are, not ask questions to gain any useful knowledge. I wasn't "debating" anything, sorry that you took a general question as some debate against your ethics or something. To me the question was furthering the part of "how can you tell", which IS part of what you yourself said this thread was about.

I like to learn all that I can about these torts, and in the limited time that I have worked with these animals I find their diversity simply amazing. In all due respect to Sulcata's and other beautiful tortoises in their own rites, it could easily be argued that Redfoots have among the highest diversity in terms of scale and shell color in the tortoise world within every "type" of redfoot. If you want to promote a trait, you do what is called line breeding, you select animals with a specific desirable trait or traits and you breed for them. A perfect example would be Allegra's high orange Cherryheads, look at her offspring they are very distinct.

I agree Bryan.. Northern redfoots especially have even more of an incredible diversity - similar to Eastern box turtles!

My small group of Northerns do - take a look on the redfoottortoisebreeder link in my signature.

NERD

 

[Bryan]

Jacqui you don't have to do that "silly stupid me".. that wasn't needed.

Actually Allegra didn't make any reference to "how can you tell", here. I did on my "PIP" thread because it was brought up there. I was mistaken when I stated that's how I interpreted this thread. My apologies!

My only "how can you tell" definition was:

I can only go by what I've experienced/seen from mainly Northern redfoots. When I see characteristics that repeat themselves from eggs laid by different females that tells me it is the males that are responsible. Then when I see that characteristic show up in a 'cherryhead' egg that tells me that one of the Northern males is responsible. That's as far as I can go with it.. I don't know anything about all this gene stuff - seriously. SOOOOO if you want to start or carry your Q?'s over to a 'debate' topic that's fine with me.. but I won't have anything to say about it.. because I don't know anything about it!

It doesn't matter to me how anyone feels about "cross-breeding" or however you define "hybrid". You can debate it if you like..

Terry K

Terry, I still don't understand how you know with certainty that the animal in question is a hybrid because of the scales being similar to one of your Northern males offspring? You have mentioned that to your knowledge you haven't had pure cherryheads yet, is it not possible that this could be a pure cherryhead? I think so, however I most certainly wouldn't bet on it or use it as a breeder due to the history of the mother.

I see a dark shell, dark skin, colors that could be associated with cherryheads, and you look at the head scales and deem it to be from your Northern male? What is your experience in breeding pure cherryheads? I think that's a fair question Terry.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Fair Q? Bryan...

Maybe 25-30% out of 200 or so Northern hatchlings have had that distinct or very similar head patterns.

None of the 2 dozen or so hatchlings from this Brazilian female.. before this one.. have had those patterns!

Before the pics that were sent to me last night from a 'cherryhead' breeder friend [ with very dark carapaces ] - all I have seen had that high yellow carapace like the one with the tiny split-scute. True we could go on and on.

I do hope you are right about this hatchling.. being the FIRST pure 'cherryhead'. I have a new/rescued captive raised 11" female that has never seen anything but Brazilians! I'll start a thread for her ASAP.

I would say it is definitely easier to 'line-breed' with fewer tortoises involved. I do like the 'blood-line' that Allegra has.

Terry K