Cherry head help.

[Redfool]

I too use no artificial UVB lights for my redfoots. Adults live outside and hatchlings are out for 2 to 3 hours usually 5 times a week. All are out in broken sun/shade under my oak trees. They all have access to hides, shade and water when outside and are much more actively curious and feed better than when inside.

 

[mark1]

I kept redfoots for more than 10yrs , they were the first exotics I kept . I kept them in my parents backyard every summer ….. they acted exactly like my eastern box turtles today , they would hide in the edges of the day lilies , they were completely visible if you knew they were there …. invisible if you didn't ……. I wintered them in an apartment in 6 foot by two foot enclosures , astro turf and newspaper substrate , no basking bulbs just standard fluorescents , the entire room was kept at 85-90 degrees with a humidifier , I've looked for pictures of them , no luck , they had no pyramiding , when the net came around I figured they were just tortoises that didn't pyramid ……. as Tom often says , these animals will endure less than optimal …. will they live their complete lifespan , I doubt any of you know that at this point in time …………… myself I have adult manni that I got in 1992 as adults that are still here …….. my native turtles I started getting in 2003 , so personally I can't tell you how i'm doing with them , just what i'm doing with them ……..

 

[mark1]

Sorry [ I suspect I'm not alone ] I understand virtually none of that written! This I do know... my redfoot tortoises ( omnivores / almost carnivores ) did not like the sun outside... and my stars ( herbivores ) did like the sun outside... and my K.erosa - forest-hingebacks ( mushroom / animal protein lovers ) were ONLY out under the moon-light... seldom / almost never during the day.
In the early days we used the "Vita-lights" I believe they were called.. used in offices to simulate sunshine!

@mark1 .. what are cob bulbs?

to me it's simple , I've kept turtles and tortoises since I was a little kid , nature has fascinated me …………..I assure you k.erosa are not nocturnal , at least not naturally …….

 

[Redfoot NERD]

All I know is while my k.erosa were outside they were always 'on-the-move' after dark.. and never out of the leaves inside.. except when offered sweet potatoes and / or mushrooms.

What are cob bulbs @mark1 ?

 

[cdmay]

Wow, I see nothing has changed here....
NERD is still basing all of his advice on what he has personally observed at his home in Tennessee with a few pets while ignoring all of the folks who have studied these animals in other parts of the country and more importantly, those who have studied the species in their natural habitats throughout the species ENTIRE range for many years. He says...“Ignore those stupid scientists people—I have watched some of my captive pets at my home, thousands of miles away from their native habitat, so I know more!”
Mark1 gets little respect for his umteen years of captive keeping AND scientific reading and research. Sorry my friend.
Sigh...little change.
As for me, I try to include everything I’ve experienced (keeping red-footed tortoises since 1974. Breeding red-footed tortoises of three distinct geographic phenotypes since 1979) along with all of the printed scientific literature, PLUS firsthand accounts from close friends who have encountered, interacted with, and recorded their findings of red-footed tortoises from the Caribbean, Guyana and Paraguay.
Here’s what I have experienced: my animals will absolutely seek out either direct, or at least, dappled sunlight even in the middle of the summer but it depends on the time of day. I have even found neonates that had emerged from nests laid in my yard that I was unaware of, that were sitting out in the open in dappled sunlight. Some in direct sunlight. Of course, they wouldn’t have stayed there all day, but they were clearly intentionally absorbing the sunlight.
During the hottest parts of the summer none of my animals are active during the middle of the day...but in the early morning and at dusk they will be sitting in what sunlight there is. After it gets really hot they disappear.
This fits exactly with what several friends of mine—-who have ACTUAL HANDS ON EXPERIENCE—with red-foot tortoises in Suriname and Paraguay have reported. Sorry NERD.

All of us must realize that the behavior of an animal from a wide range of habitats in South America (or Africa, or wherever) will not necessarily mirror what that same animal would be doing in its native homeland.
So making absolute statements about what a certain kind of Southern Hemisphere tortoise does, or needs, or wants based on your own personal experiences in the Northern Hemisphere is somewhat ridiculous.
Adding your personal observations is great— pontificating makes one sound backwards.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yes you are right again @cdmay - nothing has changed.. still there are those that "quote" me at saying or implying things that I've never said or implied. Never have I in this thread said anything negative or wrong about anyone.. including you - never have and never will. Have you forgotten you helped me incubate my first eggs in late 2004?

As for -- During the hottest parts of the summer none of my animals are active during the middle of the day...but in the early morning and at dusk they will be sitting in what sunlight there is. After it gets really hot they disappear. - nothing new or different about that here either.

Keepers from every corner of the world ( hot.. cold.. wet.. dry ) are wanting to know how to care for their redfoot tortoises. "Balancing" the 4 basic parameter needs' is vital - they have to make the adjustments... based on their own situations - doesn't every Caresheet or example of how they are cared for ( in captivity ) .. which is what this thread is about... do the same? AND - there will always be exceptions or extremes.. because " these animals will endure less than optimal "….

Are you having fun following all of this @Matt1769 ?

 

[cdmay]

still there are those that "quote" me at saying or implying things that I've never said or implied.
Are you having fun following all of this @Matt1769 ?

I respectfully disagree Dr. NERD. In the past you have repeatedly stated (and, or implied) that red-footed tortoises do not require UVB/UVA lighting because they don’t bask in the wild—or at your home. You’ve similarly stated, at least in the past, that these animals live in ‘the jungle’ and therefore don’t get exposure to the sun. No, I haven’t gone back to read all of your posts from the recent past, but you absolutely made this claim numerous times, over and over again before.
My argument would be that in actual fact these animals inhabit a wide variety of habitats that do include deep forests (or ‘jungle as you put it) for some populations, grassy savanna, seasonally dry thornscrub, mixed open scrub and on and on. They are quite adaptable. But in general red-footed tortoises they prefer more open areas. Why? It’s very simple and clear... they require the sunlight. Even when found in forest habitats they will seek out open patches where they can obtain the sunlight.
And, whether it is intentional or not, your writing comes across as very dismissive of those whom you call ‘scientists’.

I guess what I’m saying here is that when you speak with such authority about what you personally believe while not providing any tangible facts, it tends to be off putting.

 

[Redstrike]

Wow, I see nothing has changed here....
NERD is still basing all of his advice on what he has personally observed at his home in Tennessee with a few pets while ignoring all of the folks who have studied these animals in other parts of the country and more importantly, those who have studied the species in their natural habitats throughout the species ENTIRE range for many years. He says...“Ignore those stupid scientists people—I have watched some of my captive pets at my home, thousands of miles away from their native habitat, so I know more!”
Mark1 gets little respect for his umteen years of captive keeping AND scientific reading and research. Sorry my friend.
Sigh...little change.
As for me, I try to include everything I’ve experienced (keeping red-footed tortoises since 1974. Breeding red-footed tortoises of three distinct geographic phenotypes since 1979) along with all of the printed scientific literature, PLUS firsthand accounts from close friends who have encountered, interacted with, and recorded their findings of red-footed tortoises from the Caribbean, Guyana and Paraguay.
Here’s what I have experienced: my animals will absolutely seek out either direct, or at least, dappled sunlight even in the middle of the summer but it depends on the time of day. I have even found neonates that had emerged from nests laid in my yard that I was unaware of, that were sitting out in the open in dappled sunlight. Some in direct sunlight. Of course, they wouldn’t have stayed there all day, but they were clearly intentionally absorbing the sunlight.
During the hottest parts of the summer none of my animals are active during the middle of the day...but in the early morning and at dusk they will be sitting in what sunlight there is. After it gets really hot they disappear.
This fits exactly with what several friends of mine—-who have ACTUAL HANDS ON EXPERIENCE—with red-foot tortoises in Suriname and Paraguay have reported. Sorry NERD.

All of us must realize that the behavior of an animal from a wide range of habitats in South America (or Africa, or wherever) will not necessarily mirror what that same animal would be doing in its native homeland.
So making absolute statements about what a certain kind of Southern Hemisphere tortoise does, or needs, or wants based on your own personal experiences in the Northern Hemisphere is somewhat ridiculous.
Adding your personal observations is great— pontificating makes one sound backwards.

THANK YOU, finally a voice of reason!

I've been so exhausted with this type of dialogue that I've taken a hiatus. Having two young children, I find I don't have much time for this type of discussion anymore. I have similar experience with Cdmay, though I live in the northeast and have very different conditions. I choose to provide my tortoises with UVB lighting in the winter and via outdoor time when weather permits.

Re: Science and not being a "scientist"
Science is a framework that we owe a tremendous amount of respect. It's a methodology that attempts unbiased observation to explain phenomena. The care sheet that NERD has published as an important thread to this forum does not show much reverence, especially in the UVB/lighting discussion. I don't care if you're a scientist or not, what is written is biased and opinionated and I'm disappointed in the moderators for not filtering this. It's the same game I've seen from Nerd for the 7-8 years I've been on here. Unfortunately, people like myself and Madkins007 no longer have the time or energy to resist it.

 

[Redstrike]

I respectfully disagree Dr. NERD. In the past you have repeatedly stated (and, or implied) that red-footed tortoises
And, whether it is intentional or not, your writing comes across as very dismissive of those whom you call ‘scientists’.

I guess what I’m saying here is that when you speak with such authority about what you personally believe while not providing any tangible facts, it tends to be off putting.

Could not be said better.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yvonne asked me for my Caresheet so I provided it... accept or not is anyone's choice. It has worked for several . If I provide pics to document things I'm accused of 'showing-off' - for some it's a lose-lose situation regardless what is said. Is there anyone here who hasn't said or done things in the past that they wished they hadn't?

My redfoot tortoises spent about 6-7 months of the year outside.. even with a small number most spent more time in their hide area.. and some didn't. They did come out in the morning and in the evening like Carl said.

ALL in the animal kingdom have their own unique characteristics... some of the same species in different regions even seem to be different animals entirely.. so science calls them something else?

There's no way of knowing anyone's spirit by the written word. "Interpretation" has always been the 'gulf' that separates communications... and unfortunately people... who have a "common-love" for the same thing.

 

[Yvonne G]

I stand by having Terry's care sheet as a sticky. If anyone wants to present us with another one, with pictures showing their results, feel free.

 

[Redstrike]

Yvonne asked me for my Caresheet so I provided it... accept or not is anyone's choice. It has worked for several . If I provide pics to document things I'm accused of 'showing-off' - for some it's a lose-lose situation regardless what is said. Is there anyone here who hasn't said or done things in the past that they wished they hadn't?

My redfoot tortoises spent about 6-7 months of the year outside.. even with a small number most spent more time in their hide area.. and some didn't. They did come out in the morning and in the evening like Carl said.

So if they're outside for 6-7 months/year they are getting UVB exposure and storing Vitamin D3 (from the UVB) within their fat cells to use when not outside.Yet in your care sheet you claim they synthesize all their D3 needs via their diet. I'm left scratching my head at your contradiction. I recall Madkins007 and I had this discussion with you at least once 2-3 years ago?

Vitamin D3 is fat-soluble, it's also required for survival via calcium acquisition. Calcium is used not only for bone/shell construction but muscle function and a myriad of other metabolic processes. Thanks to science, we know this. We also know it can be ingested for use, but why not have multiple inputs for such a critical vitamin?

@Matt1769 - Your Redfoot(s) need UVB exposure for vitamin D3 synthesis. How you accomplish this is up to you. I use outdoor time during Spring, Summer, and parts of Fall, and I also put a UVB tube in their enclosure (closed chamber) for the winter. They will store D3 from the UVB in their fat, but I figure the bulb doesn't hurt anything.

To anyone on this forum that is looking for a good redfoot care sheet, I recommend the following, which are all FREE:
http://tortoiselibrary.com
http://redfoottortoise.com/generalcare.htm
http://tortoiseyard.com/redfoottortoisehabitat.htm

Those willing to purchase ($30), I am very fond of Mike Pingleton's "Begginers Guide to Redfoots" very reader friendly and cookbook style instruction:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1441494030/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

If you're looking for a scientific study of Redfoots habitat, distribution, and natural ecology, Vinke and Vetter are superb (this is not the lightest reading and a bit pricy ~$45):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/3899736036/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

@Yvonne G - I have so much respect for you and many of the moderators on this forum, but I do not agree with the care sheet that has been posted. It is rife with sweeping generalizations, opinions, and condescension. I sent a message to "Contact us" and never heard back. I was hoping my message would provoke Josh and your team to scrutinize the care sheet more closely. The contradiction that I just indicated in this response speaks to the quality of the care sheet.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think it's time to stop the back and forth about the care sheet. This thread belongs to Matt1769, who was asking for help with his tortoise.

If you'd like to continue the care sheet conversation, you can take it private, or start your own thread.

Terry's care sheet stays. When and if I ever see a better one, I'll add it as a sticky too, so people can pick and choose.

 

[Redstrike]

I think it's time to stop the back and forth about the care sheet. This thread belongs to Matt1769, who was asking for help with his tortoise.

If you'd like to continue the care sheet conversation, you can take it private, or start your own thread.

Terry's care sheet stays. When and if I ever see a better one, I'll add it as a sticky too, so people can pick and choose.

Agreed. I left a few links in my response that would serve as such?

 

[Yvonne G]

Agreed. I left a few links in my response that would serve as such?

The links are great, and Pingleton's book is one of the best, however, a few members over the past few months have asked that we pin our own care sheet on the Forum, so I asked Terry if he would be so kind.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thank you @Yvonne G - all I know is that the condensed 'basic' Caresheet provided - per your request - produces the youngster's shown within... and creates each "next-generation" within a few months of the prior. Wonder what else they want?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

To read the amplified and revised with credit links, etc. from the 'original' - see http://turtletary.com/northern.html

 

[Madkins007]

I stand by having Terry's care sheet as a sticky. If anyone wants to present us with another one, with pictures showing their results, feel free.

Pictures showing what? I don't demand photos of a baby care book author's kids, or photos of the dogs in a dog care book. Photos may show a smooth carapace, but that does not really prove anything unless the author can state, for a fact, that their carapace is smooth because of THIS aspect of their care plan.

I seem to recall lots of care sheets listed on this site, but only a few made it to the sticky. Heck, at one point, there was a whole library of care pages that got turned over to the management here that seems to have withered away.

 

[Yvonne G]

Pictures showing what? I don't demand photos of a baby care book author's kids, or photos of the dogs in a dog care book. Photos may show a smooth carapace, but that does not really prove anything unless the author can state, for a fact, that their carapace is smooth because of THIS aspect of their care plan.

I seem to recall lots of care sheets listed on this site, but only a few made it to the sticky. Heck, at one point, there was a whole library of care pages that got turned over to the management here that seems to have withered away.

Until Terry was kind enough to provide us with a care sheet to pin at the top of our RF section, The Tortoise Library was ALWAYS the link I provided for new members asking about RF care. It's just that a 'link' is not the same thing as having the info handy right here on the Forum. I was asked time and again why we don't have a care sheet in the RF section, so I got us one.

Can we now PLEASE stop hi-jacking Matt169's thread?