Check my plan please!

[WeedyDragons]

I am new to the forum and this is my first post!

I have wanted a group of Sulcata for nearly 15 years. I am now nearly 30 and finally in a position with house, stability, finances etc to undertake ownership of these guys (I think it is called "adulting"). I am new to tortoise ownership, however I am not new to animal husbandry. I own a sizable fish business and my background is in aquaculture, animal husbandry is my livelihood.

I wanted to post my plan of attack for these guys and get some feedback, and if there are any glaring mistakes or things I am overlooking please let me know! I am aware this is an expensive undertaking and a life long commitment.

I will be acquiring a group of 6-8 Sudanese locale Sulcatas in 4-6 weeks, I am simply in love with these animals. They will be hatchlings. I have read through every thread on here over the last year or so and understand the logic and application behind the closed box/wet method. Accordingly, I have an 8' x 4' closed box ready for the hatchlings and will have no problem maintaining the temp and humidity requirements.

I live in the Willamette valley of Oregon (aka the grass seed capitol of the world), so while fresh grass year round will be no problem, the climate itself does not allow for year round outdoor housing. I do have plenty of land available for the nice months. My plan is to build a 1000 sq ft shed/greenhouse, with radiant heat flooring, as well as a natural gas heater to maintain appropriate heat and humidity year round. The animals will have access to 1/2 acre plus of grass year round. Now the questions:

1. The tortoise yard/pen has not (as far as I know) been sprayed with pesticides/herbicides in the past several years. HOWEVER, there is very little clover and no broad leaf weeds in the turf, which does make me wonder if the previous owners applied any chemicals. Should I remove the top 12" of dirt to be sure, or will a year under my control with no herbicide application be ok?

2. I would "like" to let the animals burrow during the summer months, during the winter the ground will likely be too wet for this to occur. The soil here is fairly clay heavy, as it was historically a flood plain. Should I import several dump truck loads worth of sand to mix into the soil?

3. There will be free range chickens adjacent to (not mixed in) the tortoise compound, do I need to worry about Coccidiosis transmission or any other zoonotics? I have been trying to find en excuse to kill the chickens as they wake me up early every morning, but my wife seems to like them...

4. The UV index during the winter months here in Oregon is very low, frequently 1-2 on the cloudy/rainy days. The roof of the structure will be comprised of 3mil greenhouse paneling that allows UVB to pass through, but will this be enough for the animals during the winter months or should I supply supplemental UVB lighting during the winter months?

I am an organic gardener and will be able to supply my critters with all the herbicide/pesticide free grass, clover etc they need. Additionally, I will be growing cacti from their natural range in my greenhouse to supplement their diet.

Are there any factors I may be overlooking that need to be addressed? I am fully aware of the size, longevity and commitment required to maintain these guys. As I said, I have waited over a decade to get these animals as I am fully aware this will be an expensive, life long undertaking.

I have been lurking here for quite a while, and I look forward to some input. I am all ears and appreciate any help!

Thanks,
Colby

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hi Colby

 

[wellington]

Hello and Welcome. Your ground should be fine, pesticides and fertilizers just don't last that long.
Be sure to check the floor heat. When I looked into in, I talked to the company selling it and they don't recommend flat surfaces laying long in one spot. They said can cause a hot spot which will/could short/burn out the heating.
@Tom or @Markw84 migt be able to help with the rest

 

[Bee62]

Hello Colby,

I think I am able to answer your questions 3 and 4.

Chicken: I would keep chicken and tortoises seperated. Tortoises like to eat poop of dogs and cats. They will be interested in chicken poop too. But poop can contain bacterias and unicellular organism. I would have fear that the tortoises could be harmed.

UVB: You will need special UVB installments for your tortoises in winter. They need a lot of UVB just when they are growing.

I have one question to you: Will you breed ? When you think of breeding your hatchlings should not be of the same hatch. But @Tom are more experienced with this.

 

[WeedyDragons]

Thanks for the welcome and the input!

I do have dogs and chickens, but as mentioned the tortoise yard will be separate in order to prevent any disease transmission.

The more I think about it, the more I am wondering if a larger, dirt bottomed, climate controlled greenhouse may be more appropriate. The rain here starts in late October and goes for four to six months. One thing I should mention, is that even during the dead of winter there is enough sunlight here to grow coral in the greenhouse, so perhaps I may not need too much supplemental light.

However, assuming I will need a bit of supplemental UVB, are there any particular light types I should be looking at? I will have the electic capability of running several high wattage halide lights if needed.

 

[Big Charlie]

Thanks for the welcome and the input!

I do have dogs and chickens, but as mentioned the tortoise yard will be separate in order to prevent any disease transmission.

The more I think about it, the more I am wondering if a larger, dirt bottomed, climate controlled greenhouse may be more appropriate. The rain here starts in late October and goes for four to six months. One thing I should mention, is that even during the dead of winter there is enough sunlight here to grow coral in the greenhouse, so perhaps I may not need too much supplemental light.

However, assuming I will need a bit of supplemental UVB, are there any particular light types I should be looking at? I will have the electic capability of running several high wattage halide lights if needed.

Sulcatas need a lot of space. I don't think a greenhouse is big enough. Real sunlight is better than a UV lamp. There are people on the forum that keep tortoises in Oregon and other colder places. What seems to work best is a large heated shed the tortoises can retreat to during cold weather. As long as they can get warm in their house, they can come out even when it is cold. Also, a pond is nice.

 

[Bee62]

Thanks for the welcome and the input!

I do have dogs and chickens, but as mentioned the tortoise yard will be separate in order to prevent any disease transmission.

The more I think about it, the more I am wondering if a larger, dirt bottomed, climate controlled greenhouse may be more appropriate. The rain here starts in late October and goes for four to six months. One thing I should mention, is that even during the dead of winter there is enough sunlight here to grow coral in the greenhouse, so perhaps I may not need too much supplemental light.

However, assuming I will need a bit of supplemental UVB, are there any particular light types I should be looking at? I will have the electic capability of running several high wattage halide lights if needed.

You will need UVB bulbs even in a greenhouse because natural UVB from sunlight can not get trough glas. The glas will absorb the UVB rays. Tortoises need more UVB as plants.

 

[WeedyDragons]

Thanks for the input!

I should probably clarify, when I say greenhouse I am referring to a commercial sized (30' x 50'). And I am thinking of building a 4' tall cinderblock wall base, and then sided and roofed with 8mm double wall polycarbonate. I believe that stuff lets in about 75-80% of light, but I will contact the manufacturer to get an idea on how much UVB is blocked/allowed through. I can maintain 80 F temps and high humidity in this year round, and the animals will have year round access to the yard 1/4 -1/2 acre of pasture.

I like the idea of the pond, and would be very easy to construct a 1500 gallon filtered, shallow pond in the greenhouse.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how deep Sulcatas like to burrow? I could dig down 4-6' and lay a cement pad, with below ground cinder walls, which I could then seal allowing the torts to burrow down to 6-8' of depth, without having to worry about seasonal rain causing a cave in.

Again, this is going to be a huge undertaking, which is why I have waited a decade to start! Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[Big Charlie]

Thanks for the input!

I should probably clarify, when I say greenhouse I am referring to a commercial sized (30' x 50'). And I am thinking of building a 4' tall cinderblock wall base, and then sided and roofed with 8mm double wall polycarbonate. I believe that stuff lets in about 75-80% of light, but I will contact the manufacturer to get an idea on how much UVB is blocked/allowed through. I can maintain 80 F temps and high humidity in this year round, and the animals will have year round access to the yard 1/4 -1/2 acre of pasture.

I like the idea of the pond, and would be very easy to construct a 1500 gallon filtered, shallow pond in the greenhouse.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how deep Sulcatas like to burrow? I could dig down 4-6' and lay a cement pad, with below ground cinder walls, which I could then seal allowing the torts to burrow down to 6-8' of depth, without having to worry about seasonal rain causing a cave in.

Again, this is going to be a huge undertaking, which is why I have waited a decade to start! Thanks again for all the advice!

My large sulcata has built a few burrows. They don't go very deep. It is a gradual slope down and continues a very slight slope all the way down. Charlie's burrows turned and changed direction after about 6 feet. I think this helps with drafts. There was also a lower place right at the turn that collected waste and water. Honestly, I don't think most feel the need to burrow if temperatures are correct. They use burrows during the summer to cool off and escape the sun. I think if they have a pond and shade, they may not feel the need to dig. Same with winter; if they are warm enough, they won't seek the comfort of a burrow. Charlie hasn't built a burrow for the last 2 years, ever since I built him his newer nightbox. I've never kept multiples so they might burrow to get away from each other. Check out @Tom nightbox designs. He has one that is underground.

 

[Tom]

I am new to the forum and this is my first post!

I have wanted a group of Sulcata for nearly 15 years. I am now nearly 30 and finally in a position with house, stability, finances etc to undertake ownership of these guys (I think it is called "adulting"). I am new to tortoise ownership, however I am not new to animal husbandry. I own a sizable fish business and my background is in aquaculture, animal husbandry is my livelihood.

I wanted to post my plan of attack for these guys and get some feedback, and if there are any glaring mistakes or things I am overlooking please let me know! I am aware this is an expensive undertaking and a life long commitment.

I will be acquiring a group of 6-8 Sudanese locale Sulcatas in 4-6 weeks, I am simply in love with these animals. They will be hatchlings. I have read through every thread on here over the last year or so and understand the logic and application behind the closed box/wet method. Accordingly, I have an 8' x 4' closed box ready for the hatchlings and will have no problem maintaining the temp and humidity requirements.

I live in the Willamette valley of Oregon (aka the grass seed capitol of the world), so while fresh grass year round will be no problem, the climate itself does not allow for year round outdoor housing. I do have plenty of land available for the nice months. My plan is to build a 1000 sq ft shed/greenhouse, with radiant heat flooring, as well as a natural gas heater to maintain appropriate heat and humidity year round. The animals will have access to 1/2 acre plus of grass year round. Now the questions:

1. The tortoise yard/pen has not (as far as I know) been sprayed with pesticides/herbicides in the past several years. HOWEVER, there is very little clover and no broad leaf weeds in the turf, which does make me wonder if the previous owners applied any chemicals. Should I remove the top 12" of dirt to be sure, or will a year under my control with no herbicide application be ok?

2. I would "like" to let the animals burrow during the summer months, during the winter the ground will likely be too wet for this to occur. The soil here is fairly clay heavy, as it was historically a flood plain. Should I import several dump truck loads worth of sand to mix into the soil?

3. There will be free range chickens adjacent to (not mixed in) the tortoise compound, do I need to worry about Coccidiosis transmission or any other zoonotics? I have been trying to find en excuse to kill the chickens as they wake me up early every morning, but my wife seems to like them...

4. The UV index during the winter months here in Oregon is very low, frequently 1-2 on the cloudy/rainy days. The roof of the structure will be comprised of 3mil greenhouse paneling that allows UVB to pass through, but will this be enough for the animals during the winter months or should I supply supplemental UVB lighting during the winter months?

I am an organic gardener and will be able to supply my critters with all the herbicide/pesticide free grass, clover etc they need. Additionally, I will be growing cacti from their natural range in my greenhouse to supplement their diet.

Are there any factors I may be overlooking that need to be addressed? I am fully aware of the size, longevity and commitment required to maintain these guys. As I said, I have waited over a decade to get these animals as I am fully aware this will be an expensive, life long undertaking.

I have been lurking here for quite a while, and I look forward to some input. I am all ears and appreciate any help!

Thanks,
Colby

Hello and welcome Colby. You've got some great questions! I think I can answer them with some certainty.

Before your questions, I see that you are getting sudanese sulcatas. Not too many people have these and I don't care for the way those that do have them start them. You are taking a substantial risk there. Read these for a better explanation of what I mean here:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/
These threads will help you understand what I'm talking about. I bought 20 Sudans directly from tha source a few years ago and about a third of them died, another third failed to thrive, and one third was fine. Not a good ratio. 100% of my babies thrive because I follow the methods in that thread. Buyer beware. Please feel free to question this and make me explain further, either publicly or privately. There are few people that I recommend for buying sulcata hatchlings.

About your floor heating idea: If you are going with the copper piping embedded in the concrete and controlled by a thermostat, I think this idea will work very well. Personally, I would be leery of using the electric type of radiant floor heat. Hot spots could develop. I am admittedly ignorant here because I've never done this, so I am speculating and sharing my comfort level here. I lived in an apartment with the copper tubing built into the slab, so I know that is safe and effective.

On to your questions:

1. After several years, this dirt should be safe. I would trust it. If you are concerned, you can have the soil tested by a lab.
2. Many of them do not burrow when they are provided with adequate above ground accommodations. I wouldn't worry about adding sand. Sand is a big impaction risk and possible skin and eye irritant. I wouldn't add more. Also, your burrowing season will be so short, I don't think I'd encourage it up there.
3. Most pathogens and parasites are fairly species specific. Outside of the normal sanitary concerns like poopy chicken ground water running into the tortoise pen during a rain, you shouldn't have too much to worry about. It sounds to me like you are the kind of guy that would know how to prevent this kind of water run off.
4. If they are getting outdoor time most of the year, and still getting UVI of 1-2 all winter, you should not need any additional UV. They can go weeks in the winter with zero UV as long as they get plenty the rest of the time. D3 is fat soluble, so they can store it and use it later.

Sounds like you have all the right ideas about diet. Because I am that guy I thought I would mention that there are no cacti native to the Sahel region of Africa. Cacti are a new world plant, and the genus we typically use is Opuntia, which is all New World. It is still great tortoise food, but I didn't want you to be frustrated by looking for "native" cactus from the region where sulcatas occur.

Please feel free to question any and all of this, and keep the questions coming. Welcome again to the conversation!

 

[Clamhandsmcgee]

I agree with everybody above.

You stated that you would allow them to burrow in the summer but not in the winter. It's not easy to remove a tortoise from a burrow, they push against the walls and they're not going anywhere! Mine would sit on the edge of the burrow, and quickly retreat down when I'd try to get him. As for the question about the length of the burrow, it varies. When I lived in Florida mine dug a deep one, in southern California he barely scraped the ground.