Chaco Tortoise Male or Female???

[tenshi:3]

Hello, I am new! My name is Tenshi and my tortoise is named Raphaelina after the Teenage Mutant Ninga Turtle Raphael.

I have a Chaco tortoise from Santiago del Estero, Argentina. I have had her (?) for about 5 years now. I live in Seattle area, I'll admit I only fed her what I knew she liked like dandelion leaves, plantain leaves, clover, iceberg lettuce, romaine, squash, avocado, watermelon and the occasional orange/ mandarin. She has a very restricted diet and I keep her inside all year with her UVB light in a somewhat tight enclosure that she grew out of.

Can someone tell me if they can ID her sex yet?
THANKS

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I don't know about his/her gender since I don't know much about Chaco tortoises.

In terms of diet: this article has some tips on how to get your tortoise to try new foods: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tortoise-diet/introducing-a-new-diet/ It is important you start feeding a bigger variety. Also, my understanding is that avocados shouldn't be fed to any tortoises:

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

It seems from the pictures that he/she is pyramided. You need to up his/her humidity and start soaking him. Could you answer some questions so we can help you make the rest of his/her life as good as possible:

• Do you soak your tortoise? How often?
• What kind of waterbowl do you have in the enclousure? Do you see your tortoise drink from it?
• What are the enclousure dimensions?
• Is the enclousure a closed chamber?
• What substrate do you use?
• What are the temperatures in the enclosure? (basking, hot side, cool side, ambient)?
• What is the humidity like?

 

[TammyJ]

She looks pretty needy. Please try to answer the questions.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I did some exploring on the internet since I have never heard of keeping chaco tortoises as pets and found a few points about gender identification:

• Chaco tortoises gender is really hard to determine beacause male and female tales are almost the same lenght and veri similar visually, but the shape of the plastron might help to identify the gender. (1) (2) So you might not find a concrete answer on this forum, especially as chacos are less known species.
• Chaco tortoises reach sexual maturity at about 12 years old (3). Do you know how old your tortoise is? If it is younger, it might be still hard to tell its sex.

(1) https://www.anapsid.org/chaco2.html
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shell
(3) https://www.arizonatortoisecompound.com/Chaco-Tortoise.html

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I did some exploring on the internet since I have never heard of keeping chaco tortoises as pets and found a few points about gender identification:

• Chaco tortoises gender is really hard to determine beacause male and female tales are almost the same lenght and veri similar visually, but the shape of the plastron might help to identify the gender. (1) (2) So you might not find a concrete answer on this forum, especially as chacos are less known species.
• Chaco tortoises reach sexual maturity at about 12 years old (3). Do you know how old your tortoise is? If it is younger, it might be still hard to tell its sex.

(1) https://www.anapsid.org/chaco2.html
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_shell
(3) https://www.arizonatortoisecompound.com/Chaco-Tortoise.html

Also, weight and carapace lenght might help to identify the sex, though your tortoise might be stunted.


During my research today I have seen mentioned several times that Chacos are relatively hard to keep in captivity and are prone to pyramiding (like this thread for example https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/captive-care-of-chaco-tortoises.27553/). Thankfully you have landed onto this forum, I bet there is someone that knows Chacos and can help you!

 

[tenshi:3]

I don't know about his/her gender since I don't know much about Chaco tortoises.

In terms of diet: this article has some tips on how to get your tortoise to try new foods: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tortoise-diet/introducing-a-new-diet/ It is important you start feeding a bigger variety. Also, my understanding is that avocados shouldn't be fed to any tortoises:

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

Browse and Search the Tortoise Table Plant Database

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

It seems from the pictures that he/she is pyramided. You need to up his/her humidity and start soaking him. Could you answer some questions so we can help you make the rest of his/her life as good as possible:

• Do you soak your tortoise? How often?
• What kind of waterbowl do you have in the enclousure? Do you see your tortoise drink from it?
• What are the enclousure dimensions?
• Is the enclousure a closed chamber?
• What substrate do you use?
• What are the temperatures in the enclosure? (basking, hot side, cool side, ambient)?
• What is the humidity like?

I soak my tortoise but like once a week, when she is not hiberating every 3 days. She is in a 2 ft by 1 ft aquarium with dirt as substrate (very dry and sand like). Temperatures can be in the 60s, tops 70s most days. Humidity i believe is like 50-60%. My pet does not have a waterbowl.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello, @tenshi:3 Your tortoise either needs to be rehomed to someone who can give it proper care or you can be "that man" and immediately start working on improvements. You are lucky to have this rare and endangered specie, please, make sure it lives the life it deserves. This is not an offense, please don't take it like that. And I understand, that care information for chacos is very limited.

From the photos it looks like a female tortoise (rather short tail and it's pretty large). However, growth may be stunted and it may develop more obvious gender signs.

A few things you may start improving right now:
1. Enclosure size. You know that she (let's stick with "she" for now) has outgrown the one you have. Do you have a room space to make a larger one? Something like a double-size bed in size?

2. They come from arid regions and it seems logical to keep them on dry and sandy soil. However, they often use burrows to thermoregulate and stay in a humid environment. You may switch to a more common substrate options like orchid (fir) bark.

3. Her diet is not bad. Yet you should add some variety like papaya or mango. See if you can get opuntia cactus pads and fruit (aka "prickly pear", aka "nopales" in Mexican food stores).

4. Most likely chacos don't hibernate but stay semi-awake in colder seasons, but it's not the same as what we observe with Testudo species. In captivity there is no need to replicate these conditions.

5. Raise temperatures a bit (70F at nights, mid 80s during the day).

6. She needs a water dish, large enough to get into and self-soak. But it's not possible to fit it in your current enclosure, so soak her daily for now. Tortoises need to be well hydrated, even those who come from arid regions, contrary to popular belief.

Please, ask any questions you might have.

 

[tenshi:3]

Hello, @tenshi:3 Your tortoise either needs to be rehomed to someone who can give it proper care or you can be "that man" and immediately start working on improvements. You are lucky to have this rare and endangered specie, please, make sure it lives the life it deserves. This is not an offense, please don't take it like that. And I understand, that care information for chacos is very limited.

From the photos it looks like a female tortoise (rather short tail and it's pretty large). However, growth may be stunted and it may develop more obvious gender signs.

A few things you may start improving right now:
1. Enclosure size. You know that she (let's stick with "she" for now) has outgrown the one you have. Do you have a room space to make a larger one? Something like a double-size bed in size?

2. They come from arid regions and it seems logical to keep them on dry and sandy soil. However, they often use burrows to thermoregulate and stay in a humid environment. You may switch to a more common substrate options like orchid (fir) bark.

3. Her diet is not bad. Yet you should add some variety like papaya or mango. See if you can get opuntia cactus pads and fruit (aka "prickly pear", aka "nopales" in Mexican food stores).

4. Most likely chacos don't hibernate but stay semi-awake in colder seasons, but it's not the same as what we observe with Testudo species. In captivity there is no need to replicate these conditions.

5. Raise temperatures a bit (70F at nights, mid 80s during the day).

6. She needs a water dish, large enough to get into and self-soak. But it's not possible to fit it in your current enclosure, so soak her daily for now. Tortoises need to be well hydrated, even those who come from arid regions, contrary to popular belief.

Please, ask any questions you might have.

Yes, I am currently looking to get her a larger area. Maybe like 3' by 2' for indoors. Outdoor I was thinkiing 2' by 4'. Or is that still too small? Maybe a gated area would be better outside, but I have lots of wildlife passing in my backyard... Ill try to find some fir bark in the pet store, what do you think of coconut husk mats? A water dish has been ordered and I started a garden with more variety for her; lettuce, kale, chard, nasturiums and others. Oh yes she loves mango!

Thanks for all the info, I was finding it hard years ago to come upon relevant info for her, Im glad I found this forum.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I'm glad you are working on the improvements!

Unfortunately, 4x2ft is too small. Tortoises ain't like the other reptiles - they need to walk (their digestion depends on it, for example). And in the wild they walk miles in a day (literally!).

A fenced area outdoors is perfect, but needs to be predator-proof (with something like wielded wire). I like an idea of greenhouse-like outdoor enclosures covered with UV-open plastics to allow natural sunlight - but it's certainly a big project.

If you can provide large enough outdoor space (200-300 sq.ft.), this "relaxes" the requirements for indoors enclosure size. But it's still desirable to have something 6x3 feet at least.

An important notice: don't rush to the pet shop for supplies. Many common goods are overpriced there (like a fir bark or thermometers/hygrometers, for example). Look for a cypress mulch, fir bark or coco coir in your local plant nurseries. Coco husk mats aren't great - many tortoises like to burrow, so you need 4-6 inches of substrate at least and mats aren't good at holding moisture.

The same thing is with the enclosures - most of the "off the shelf" enclosures are either expensive or too small or both. Building your own is often a better way. A super simple option is to get 2-pack of plastic raised garden beds with covers and with little effort turn them in a 4x8 "closed chamber" enclosure.

You are welcome to ask many questions as you like, we'll try to explain everything in details.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Yes, I am currently looking to get her a larger area. Maybe like 3' by 2' for indoors. Outdoor I was thinkiing 2' by 4'. Or is that still too small? Maybe a gated area would be better outside, but I have lots of wildlife passing in my backyard... Ill try to find some fir bark in the pet store, what do you think of coconut husk mats? A water dish has been ordered and I started a garden with more variety for her; lettuce, kale, chard, nasturiums and others. Oh yes she loves mango!

Thanks for all the info, I was finding it hard years ago to come upon relevant info for her, Im glad I found this forum.

A clay saucer meant for flower pots will do perfectly as a water dish.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This care sheet works as a great base for chaco tortoises: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

This is a good base for research and new comers to the forum: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/info-for-new-people-please-read-this-first.202363/

I have heard that their care is really similar to desert tortoises, so you could also look at desert tortoise threads for more info.

What is interesting about chacos, many sources from early 2010s list them as a short lived species, 20-50 years in captivity, 80 at max. I don't know where this comes from, maybe they are hard to keep? (This for example: https://www.theanimalfacts.com/reptiles/chaco-tortoise/) Hopefully yours will outlive that with modern care!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

@tenshi:3 A small update for you: perhaps, I was wrong about brumation (hibernation) of Chacos (https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/h...species-and-gender.149853/page-3#post-2102573). This, probably, makes things easier for you as you can build an "emergency" indoors enclosure (and 4x2 feet may be sufficient and it could be temporary like a grow tent) and a decent sized outside pen.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've never seen a Chaco tortoise in real life, but I've seen lots of pictures, and the majority of them in the pictures are badly pyramided. This makes me believe that humidity and a moist environment when chacos are babies is quite important. This is what my friend, Google, has to say about Chaco tortoises:

The Chaco tortoise (Geochelone chilensis) lives in dry lowland habitats in South America, including deciduous dry forests, savannas, thorn and scrub brush, and deserts. The Chaco tortoise's range extends from Central Argentina to Paraguay, but not Chile. Its habitat experiences significant seasonal fluctuations. In northern Patagonia, where winter temperatures can range from 30–50°F (-1–10°C), Chaco tortoises spend the winter in open burrows or pallets.

So I'm thinking that many people who find themselves caring for baby Chaco tortoises have misinterpreted this to mean they should keep the baby in a dry environment. But this is wrong. Baby tortoises of any species don't live out in the open. They stay buried or under bushes and they poop and pee in there which adds to the humidity they're living in.

Try to get the tortoise to eat a more varied diet. If you can get your hands on some Mazuri Tortoise Diet, that would be good. Also, Soak the tortoise in warm water every other day or so for about 15 minutes. Make sure it's getting UVB either from the sun or from a GOOD UVB light, along with the calcium rich foods, for good shell and bone growth. Here's what my friend, Google, says about feeding the Chaco tortoise:

Chaco tortoises (Geochelone chilensis) are primarily herbivores that eat grasses, shrubs, fruits, and cactus pads in the wild. During the wet season to dry season, they graze on grasses, but during the dry season when grasses lose nutrients, they revert to succulents. It's also theorized that they may eat some carrion in the wild

So you can feed your tortoise cactus (opuntia) pads (my tortoises LOVE opuntia), a bit of fruit, a bit of animal protein (hard boiled eggs, cooked chicken cut up, worms, etc. along with the greens. You might try to find endive, escarole and raddichio. My tortoises LOVE these greens. Here in my area there's a packaged salad mix called Santa Barbara Salad. It's endive, escarole and raddichio. Very convenient.

You're very lucky to have such a rare (in the U.S.) tortoise. Enjoy her/him and take more pictures for us!

 

[turtlesteve]

Welcome to the forum!

I will echo other comments earlier - this is a rare species in the US and has a reputation for being difficult to care for. In reality much of this reputation comes from them being misunderstood.

To your original question, I lean towards female but it is too soon to be certain. The tail shape is very ambiguous and not strongly male or female in appearance. I am guessing female because the overall shape of the shell is very round and that is usually a feminine trait. At the current size this tortoise is still growing so may take another year or two to be certain. Females should reach 8” or more, and males usually are 6.5-7.5”

I would recommend you have a large outdoor enclosure (at least 4x8 feet) for warm weather, and a smaller indoor enclosure for cool weather. The species can brumate but I would not recommend a continuous brumation - it is ok to simply let them get cooler and less active but not actually go to sleep for months on end. They should be kept dry during the winter but warm and humid in summer. Optimal summer temperatures are about 85-90 daytime and maybe 70 ish at night. In winter they can be more like 75 during the day (if staying active) and 60 at night.

Diet is mostly leafy vegetables, weeds, and cactus. You can use fruits for 10-15% of the diet and it will not cause a problem in this species. You should have a shallow water dish available at all times. For a tortoise this size I would get an 8” plant saucer.

The bumpy shell / pyramiding is mostly likely from low humidity when the tortoise was growing as a baby, there is nothing you can do about it now. It should not cause any long term health issues.

If this tortoise is indeed a female, you need to consider long term plans ASAP. If you raise her to maturity she might start producing eggs even if never mated. This species is extremely high risk for complications in egg production because they have very large eggs relative to the size of the tortoise, and producing those eggs requires a lot of nutrition and calcium. So if she is not in excellent health, egg production could be fatal. I am aware of multiple fatal egg binding incidents in Chaco tortoises in the US and this is the main reason that out of imported tortoises, the mortality rate of females was historically much higher. Egg binding is also caused by the female retaining eggs, so it’s critical that adult females have a suitable site to lay eggs at all times. This would mean 6-8” of soil depth in both winter and summer enclosures (since normal laying time in the US would be July through November).

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

@turtlesteve Thank you! I'm glad you've joined this thread!

 

[tenshi:3]

Thank you all for your comments, its helping a lot. I plan to make her an somewhat large outdoor pen and a 3x2 indoor one. In Seattle its still pretty cold now in May, I hope it heats up soon. I'll be sure to get her some cactus and her greens. I bought her a soaking pool with a ramp and a calcium block from ZooMed . She has been getting a little angsty so its telling me to hurry it up. Otherwise from a complete amateur view she doesn't look sick or any signs of infections. I haven't taken her to a vet ever, imma definitely look into it. I'll be sure to keep you guys updated!

PS: Throughout to warmer seasons in the PNW I did have her roaming around outdoors in a play pen,
That is when she grew the most and seemed the happiest tbh. She loves burrowing into grass and having her bum towards the sun hehe. Her favorite leaves are dandelion by far, she gets tired of iceberg lettuce and romaine. I saw her eat a slug once or twice, other than that I don't see her having animal protein.

This is her a couple years ago and back I believe 5 years ago

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thank you all for your comments, its helping a lot. I plan to make her an somewhat large outdoor pen and a 3x2 indoor one. In Seattle its still pretty cold now in May, I hope it heats up soon. I'll be sure to get her some cactus and her greens. I bought her a soaking pool with a ramp and a calcium block from ZooMed . She has been getting a little angsty so its telling me to hurry it up. Otherwise from a complete amateur view she doesn't look sick or any signs of infections. I haven't taken her to a vet ever, imma definitely look into it. I'll be sure to keep you guys updated!

PS: Throughout to warmer seasons in the PNW I did have her roaming around outdoors in a play pen,
That is when she grew the most and seemed the happiest tbh. She loves burrowing into grass and having her bum towards the sun hehe. Her favorite leaves are dandelion by far, she gets tired of iceberg lettuce and romaine. I saw her eat a slug once or twice, other than that I don't see her having animal protein.

This is her a couple years ago and back I believe 5 years ago

Please, keep us updated! And ask questions if any! I would check heating and lightning setup - it's a tough topic and equipment is rather expensive.

P.S. - water dishes are another example, when you can get a cheaper, better option from a hardware store. Shallow terracotta saucers, like those placed under flower pots, make great water dish (easy to get in and out, cheap and non-slippery). IKEA bookcases put on back and "water proofed" with a shower curtain make rather cheap, spacious and neat looking tortoise table.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Please, keep us updated! And ask questions if any! I would check heating and lightning setup - it's a tough topic and equipment is rather expensive.

P.S. - water dishes are another example, when you can get a cheaper, better option from a hardware store. Shallow terracotta saucers, like those placed under flower pots, make great water dish (easy to get in and out, cheap and non-slippery). IKEA bookcases put on back and "water proofed" with a shower curtain make rather cheap, spacious and neat looking tortoise table.

Yeah, I would go for the BILLY bookcase if I would choose to use a IKEA bookcase. Especially the bigger size (202 cm x 80 cm, if I remember correctly)

 

[LAINHART]

I soak my tortoise but like once a week, when she is not hiberating every 3 days. She is in a 2 ft by 1 ft aquarium with dirt as substrate (very dry and sand like). Temperatures can be in the 60s, tops 70s most days. Humidity i believe is like 50-60%. My pet does not have a waterbowl.

2ft x1ft !