CBW Questions

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tglazie

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Hi guys,

So, I've had my rad for a few days, and everything is going great so far. I've been seriously considering getting more of them so that I might be a rad breeder in my old age; sure, maybe I'm jumping the gun, but this is a species I very much enjoy so far, and I'm quite certain that enjoyment will grow. I've acquired my current little lady within my own state, which, to my knowledge, doesn't require a cbw permit. However, to purchase an animal outside the state, I would need one of these permits. I've read a recent posting in the general forum, however, that speaks to several individuals being unable to acquire new permits given some typical governmental overreach requiring costly legal proceedings to temporarily stop until the next dictator bureaucrat decides to do the same thing. So this got me wondering. Apologies if these questions are unoriginal.

Could a relative or friend in the state in which the animal is being sold purchase the animal as a legal resident of that state, then turn around and gift that animal to the resident of another state without a permit? Would this illicit a response from USFW if they were ever enlightened to the fact that this occurred? Certainly, it would be illegal if money changed hands at any point, but what if cash was exchanged, and there was no proof a transaction took place beyond the original seller? I'm not asking how to break the law. I'm merely asking how USFW could possibly stop this practice from taking place, given that it seems, to my mind at least, a big hole in the rule book if such is indeed the case.

If one day I have to move for a job, will I have to acquire a cbw to take my tortoises to my new home in a new state? Is transferring the animal over state lines legal in this case? What if I wanted to take one of my tortoises to another state and trade it for another in a breeder exchange? Is this not permitted? I've read conflicting info concerning these matters, and I've merely been seeking clarification.

T.G.
 

Millerlite

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A tortoise like the rad that requires a permant. Needs a permit to cross any state lines legally. Weather it's gifted Or bought either way you need a permit. If you decide to move across States you also need a permit. If you plan to deal with them I would try and get one. Not sure if that permit problem is with all permits for tortoises or just desert tortoise permits.

Kyle
 

deadheadvet

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Kyle: That is not correct. The CBW Permit is only required for the purpose of commerce r.e. if you sell a Radiated Tortoise, it can only be sold within the state it resides. If you want to sell it to someone in another state, both parties will need a permit. You could legally sell the tortoise in the state it resides, then the buyer could legally gift the tortoise to you without a permit. It is all about compensation for the sale of the animal. If money or trade of equal value takes place, a permit would be required by both parties outside of the same state.
 

tglazie

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I see. So I couldn't trade animals with someone outside the state without a permit in the future, given that trade is seen as an act of commerce. But the animals can be gifted, regardless of residency. Thank you for the clarification.

T.G.
 

deadheadvet

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you can only trade same species of equal value and not need a permit
 

tglazie

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So you can trade? Excellent. So, I could trade a juvenile male for another juvenile male of the same age, across state lines, and it is all perfectly legal. So, if one breeds radiated tortoises, one could breed the animals and sell them within the state, all without a permit. Alright.

T.G.
 

Tom

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To be clear, a CBW is only necessary to sell a tortoise across state lines. Tortoises can be bought within your own state with no permit. A tortoise can be sent on a breeding loan across State lines with no permit. Once a tortoise has been legally sold across state lines with CBW permit on both ends, it can then be transferred, sold, given away, or anything else within the new state with no permit.

So t, once the tortoise is legally in TX it can be bought and resold within TX without a permit indefinitely. It won't be hard to find someone in TX with a CBW to help out with this.

I am not sure how the authorities would view your other proposal of having a family member buy it in state, and then give it away to you across state lines. From a technical standpoint, it does not seem to violate the law, however, I am not sure how the person investigating your case might look at that. I would love to have somebody ask them anonymously whether they would let that go, or if they would feel it was a violation. It is a novel approach that I had not thought of.

I have a friend that I can ask that might have an answer for us. I will get back to you with his answer.
 

tglazie

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Much appreciated, Tom. Now, keep in mind I'm not suggesting this for myself. I'm not interested in violating the law. I just want to know what the law says so that I can specifically avoid violating it, which I know, kind of sounds like I'm saying, "Officer, I was only in the brothel to find directions on how to get away from the brothel," but still, I'm just wondering how the law works. I mean, if someone can approach someone with a CBW, ask them to buy an animal across state lines, then buy the animal without a CBW here in Texas, that's legal? And if I may ask a followup, really? Then really what's the point of the CBW? I mean, what are the limits of a sale? For instance, if someone approaches a CBW holder with money, saying that he would like them to buy an animal in another state and that he would give them a percentage upon receipt of the animal, would that be legal? Would it make any difference if the person gave money before or after the tortoise was purchased in the other state? Would evidence of written correspondence be used against the person orchestrating such a scheme? What if the only communication between the CBW holder and the non-CBW holder was in the form of phone calls and verbal agreements? I wonder if this would stand up in court, or if some corrupt bureaucrat would realize it couldn't stand up, but would prosecute anyway to cause fiscal damage and heartache in order to set an example. I mean, from what I understand, the government can deny your application for a CBW and keep your money, and that isn't against the law in any way whatsoever. And they don't even need a solid reason to deny your application. They can simply be headed up by someone who believes private keepers shouldn't be issued permits, and that is the way it is until a more sympathetic administrator is appointed. Typical government corruption. Hmmm... Like I said, don't get me wrong. I'm playing it safe. All of my dealings will be in state until I can flush out the precise nature of this situation. But I don't really want to bother USFW about this, given that I've gotta admit, I'm rather paranoid when it comes to government agencies. I don't want to be put on a list of suspicious persons.

T.G.
 
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Tom

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I agree on all counts. We are of the same mindset on this issue. I want to understand every aspect of this law so that I DON'T break it.
 

deadheadvet

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I was told by a USFWS Biologist that gifting the animal is how you get around the permit issue. I am not advocating breaking the law, however, money can not directly pass between both parties that do not reside in the same state. You would have to gift the animal to someone in the state that wants to purchase. Then the buyer must pay the person in the same state that received the animal as a gift. It is in the grey area of legal but totally legal.
 

dmmj

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I love loopholes
 

Millerlite

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So my question is what do the permits serve as? Just helps keep track of tortoises? Helps with mass breeding and selling of more critical species ? A little of everything ?

Kyle
 

deadheadvet

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The purpose of the permit was, if a species was ESA listed, you would have to have a CBW permit to transport the listed species across state lines for commercial gain. Crossing state lines for profit would violate the Lacey act which is about interstate commerce. Zoos who traded animals or were gifted were exempt from the permit process. Now some of that has changed because a lot of zoo animals have significant value.
 

tglazie

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Apologies, I don't mean to keep harping on the hypothetical, but let's say this gray area is technically legal. Could an official who catches wind of this become upset at the abuse of this loophole and punish a cbw holder in an extra-legal sense. For instance, let's say a person speaks to a cbw holder about purchasing some animals for him from another state, then pays the cbw holder for those animals. Let's say USFW gets wind of this. Could they refuse to renew said cbw holder's permit for engaging in this runaround? I mean, I would figure yes, but I was just wondering if this had ever occurred.

T.G.
 

deadheadvet

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My opinion is USFWS know this is taking place but it is not illegal. That being said, the Branch Permit Chief has denied all new applications for anyone other then Zoo or AZA Certified Facility. He has taken this position to affect commercial trade of listed species. Totally wrong and theft of 200$ for every permit requested since USFWS has had no intent of issuing the requested permits. For those looking to put together a genetic diverse group of radiated Tortoises for example, best to contact a Permit holder in your state to facilitate acquisition of a wanted animal(s)
 

tglazie

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Interesting. Yes, I had read your post regarding the branch permit chief denying all new applications for those in the private sector, and since this hardline stance is going to be in place until a legal challenge is successfully mounted or the chief steps down, I figure it could be a while before I could acquire a genetically diverse group of animals through my own initiative. This was why I was asking if it was legal to pursue these various runarounds, but I don't want to pursue such a measure if it could be jeopardizing established cbw holders.

T.G.
 

tglazie

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As of now, my aim is to acquire a nice sized group of rads, even if they are siblings or closely related. I will worry about trading them once they start reaching maturity. But if there was any way to achieve genetic diversity before then that didn't involve giving the government $200 to receive nothing in return, then I'll go for that.

T.G.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Hi guys,

So, I've had my rad for a few days, and everything is going great so far. I've been seriously considering getting more of them so that I might be a rad breeder in my old age; sure, maybe I'm jumping the gun, but this is a species I very much enjoy so far, and I'm quite certain that enjoyment will grow. I've acquired my current little lady within my own state, which, to my knowledge, doesn't require a cbw permit. However, to purchase an animal outside the state, I would need one of these permits. I've read a recent posting in the general forum, however, that speaks to several individuals being unable to acquire new permits given some typical governmental overreach requiring costly legal proceedings to temporarily stop until the next dictator bureaucrat decides to do the same thing. So this got me wondering. Apologies if these questions are unoriginal.

Could a relative or friend in the state in which the animal is being sold purchase the animal as a legal resident of that state, then turn around and gift that animal to the resident of another state without a permit? YES Would this illicit a response from USFW if they were ever enlightened to the fact that this occurred? No law broken they have nothing to do about it. Certainly, it would be illegal if money changed hands at any point, but what if cash was exchanged, and there was no proof a transaction took place beyond the original seller? Well then you are breaking the law. I'm not asking how to break the law. I'm merely asking how USFW could possibly stop this practice from taking place, given that it seems, to my mind at least, a big hole in the rule book if such is indeed the case. You need to have a paper trail of how you want the world to see what you do.

If one day I have to move for a job, will I have to acquire a cbw to take my tortoises to my new home in a new state? No. Is transferring the animal over state lines legal in this case? YES What if I wanted to take one of my tortoises to another state and trade it for another in a breeder exchange? Is this not permitted? That is a breeding loan of undetermined duration, so does NOT represent a sale. I've read conflicting info concerning these matters, and I've merely been seeking clarification.

T.G.

Responses in the body of your text as courier type face.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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The purpose of the permit was, if a species was ESA listed, you would have to have a CBW permit to transport the listed species across state lines for commercial gain. Crossing state lines for profit would violate the Lacey act which is about interstate commerce. Zoos who traded animals or were gifted were exempt from the permit process. Now some of that has changed because a lot of zoo animals have significant value.

Simply to regulate commerce of an ESA listed species. Conservation concern would appear to be a rationalization for the listing.
 

deadheadvet

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As Will and I have previously discussed. ESA listing for a non native species is arbitrary at best by USFWS. CITES Appendix 1 is a globally recognized classification of an endangered species. ESA listing is totally BS for a species not native to the United States.
 
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