Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

[tortoisetime565]

I have a 9"sulcata. She will become an outside tort at the end of this frigid winter. But she is the only African tortoise I have. As well as the largest. In the future, I want to get another tortoise. I'm thinking about a leopard. I've seen many care sheets that say "leopard and sulcata care sheets." So I just wanted to know if they could be kept together. Of corse I'll do my research before I get one. As I have done on all my other ones. thanks to everyone!

 

[wellington]

No they can not. Although their care is the same, the sully will get much larger and will most likely hurt or kill the leopard.

 

[T33's Torts]

I would say no. NO. Torts of different species have different pathogens. New pathogens= illness

 

[Arizona Sulcata]

They can but it's not recommended. I know a few people that do and they seem to get along fine but that's just scratching the surface of problems that can occur. Not to mention every tortoise and situation is different. Long story short... they can but its not a great idea.

 

[Tom]

Species should not be mixed both for behavioral and disease potential reasons.

If you want more than one, divide the yard up so they each have their own space.

 

[tortoisetime565]

Okay. I was just wondering. Thanks to everyone. I will make sure they each have their own space.

 

[Mick.Ire]

without being controversial, there is another way to look at this subject. If talking about wild caught animals I would strongly agree with the above and say absolutely no, but 99.9999999% of the time with these two species this is not the case. So if the animals in question are both captive bred and of a similar size there is no problem what so ever housing them together once both animals are healthy. There is nothing a captive leopard tortoise will catch off a captive sulcata and vice versa that it won't catch out side grazing on grass. There is no harmful pathogens one can carry and make the other ill if captive. All tortoises should be vet checked on purchase and fecal tests carried out.
For the past 20 years we have housed our leopard tortoises with our sulcatas. They were similar size when acquired with the leopards being slightly bigger. Not once was there ever a time when the sulcatas got too big for the leopards. While they did bypass them, there was never an occasion where the sulcatas could cause harm. A adult sulcata will not be able to hurt or kill an adult leopard. Leopard tortoises are also a moderately large species. If cared for correctly a sulcata will never be able to grow to a size to harm a leopard tortoise that was originally a similar size. accelerated growth due to incorrect care which is wrong being the exception.
Our co-habituating the two species is so successful that our leopards are breeding for us and all animals are 100% happy and healthy. We would not breed the sulcatas.
Please note, in my opinion the above only applies to these species and redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises.

here's some pic's of our bunch and some recent babies.

 

[Tom]

without being controversial, there is another way to look at this subject.

This IS controversial, and anyone can "look" at it any way they want. Doesn't change the facts, which you clearly do not understand.

If talking about wild caught animals I would strongly agree with the above and say absolutely no, but 99.9999999% of the time with these two species this is not the case. So if the animals in question are both captive bred and of a similar size there is no problem what so ever housing them together once both animals are healthy. There is nothing a captive leopard tortoise will catch off a captive sulcata and vice versa that it won't catch out side grazing on grass.

All of this is dead wrong. There are lots of WC animals still in circulation of both species. Much more than 0.0000000001%.

There is no way, short of necropsy, to know what an animal is or isn't carrying. This is why quarantine is recommended even for members of the SAME species, much less different ones. Fecal samples do not catch MANY potential pathogens. There are A LOT of nasty reptile diseases circulating around right now, largely because many people think the way you do and make the same incorrect assumptions. There are many diseases that are currently being carried around right now by a-symptomatic carriers. I have seen this first hand and have all the vet bills and vet reports to prove it.

There is no harmful pathogens one can carry and make the other ill if captive. All tortoises should be vet checked on purchase and fecal tests carried out.

This is COMPLETELY false. See the above about vet bills and reports. This statement is so false that it is dangerous. If someone were to read this and believe this falsehood, great harm, including death, could come to their entire collection.

...there was never an occasion where the sulcatas could cause harm. A adult sulcata will not be able to hurt or kill an adult leopard. Leopard tortoises are also a moderately large species. If cared for correctly a sulcata will never be able to grow to a size to harm a leopard tortoise that was originally a similar size. accelerated growth due to incorrect care which is wrong being the exception.

This is ludicrous and again so dangerous that it can't be left sitting there to be read by people who don't know better without being challenged. I have personally seen 100+ pound sulcatas kill other 100+ pound sulcatas. I didn't see it while it was happening, but I saw the aftermath. Only a fool would claim that an adult sulcata couldn't "hurt or kill an adult leopard". That is an absurd statement. Of course they can and often do. This has nothing to do with "accelerated growth" or "similar size". Sulcatas are much more aggressive in general and even a small sulcata could flip a large leopard in the sun and kill it. It is in the NATURE of sulcatas to do this sort of thing to other males. For that matter an aggressive male leopard could also flip a sulcata.

Our co-habituating the two species is so successful that our leopards are breeding for us and all animals are 100% happy and healthy.

Leopards will breed for just about anybody under just about any circumstances. That yours are breeding is not a sign that everything is hunky dory fine. I'm not saying that it isn't fine, I'm just saying that is no measure of whether its fine or not.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and everyone is entitled to say what they want, but the above addressed statements are not even remotely true. Following this advice or example will almost certainly lead to dead, sick or injured tortoises at least some percentage of the time. Just because one person has gotten away with this with their own animals and it seems like nothing is wrong, does not mean its good advice to be spreading around. If you had seen what I have seen, you might change your opinion. Many years ago, I thought the same way you did. Time, experience and dead tortoises have shown me how ignorant I was.

To be clear: This is not an attack on the poster. This is an attack on the erroneous, blatantly false, dangerous to tortoises, statements made by the poster.

 

[wellington]

I have no first hand experience with the two species together. However, the part about a sulcata could never injure or kill a leopard? Just plain common sense would tell you that is so untrue and ridiculous. It has worked for you and I'm glad it has. When it doesn't work for you, it will be a very sad day. Even two Aldabras that has lived together for 115 years or so, has had their battles.

 

[jaizei]

If talking about wild caught animals I would strongly agree with the above and say absolutely no, but 99.9999999% of the time with these two species this is not the case. So if the animals in question are both captive bred and of a similar size there is no problem what so ever housing them together once both animals are healthy. There is nothing a captive leopard tortoise will catch off a captive sulcata and vice versa that it won't catch out side grazing on grass.

All of this is dead wrong. There are lots of WC animals still in circulation of both species. Much more than 0.0000000001%.

There is no way, short of necropsy, to know what an animal is or isn't carrying. This is why quarantine is recommended even for members of the SAME species, much less different ones. Fecal samples do not catch MANY potential pathogens. There are A LOT of nasty reptile diseases circulating around right now, largely because many people think the way you do and make the same incorrect assumptions. There are many diseases that are currently being carried around right now by a-symptomatic carriers. I have seen this first hand and have all the vet bills and vet reports to prove it.

Which pathogens are deadly to sulcatas but not leopards (or vice versa)? Why is quarantine enough of a preventative measure when mixing animals of the same species? If there are these many, undetectable, fatal pathogens in leopards and/or sulcatas then mixing any of these animals with any other animals (even of the same species) is highly irresponsible.

 

[Mick.Ire]

I will get back to this tomorrow as it is a blatent attack on the poster. its late here but want to clear my name of the misguided fool you make me out to be.
I 100% stand by everything I have said above and will go into detail tomorrow without insulting as that's my nature.
Then I will ask you for scientific reports and PUBLISHED papers (we all have vet bills) for all the claims you have made so I'd get googling if I was you. I have first hand experience, you don't.
Perhaps the US has changed it's laws regarding the importation of wild African reptiles, how would I know, I'm just from Ireland. Highly Doubt it though.

You have no experience with keeping the two together, I do. And I wish Leopards were like the rabbits you make them out to be but unfortunately if leopards are anyway stressed they will not breed successfully, the more common out come is egg bound females.

Sulcatas are not the monsters you make them out to be, please please please show me evidence of the "often" times when a sulcata has killed a leopard.

What you mightn't realise is that most tortoises will experience aggression if kept in numbers same species or not. So these 100pound sulcatas are not the killers you say they are. They are no different to the 300g Hermanni that flips the 200g hermanni on its back. This can be fatal in both instances but a sulcata is no more likely to kill a leopard than any other same species kept together.

This post was aimed to be another way of thinking and for anyone reading please remember that in keeping these wonderful animals it is not all black and white as is made out above, there is a lot of grey which needs to be explored within reason.

On that note, good night to all.

 

[argus333]

staten island zoo, popcorn park zoo, disney, and bush gardens tampa all have mixed tortoise displays. granted they are zoos. but i have seen better animal care and breeding facilities within the private sector, so i believe maybe some people may be able to mix with no problems. bush gardens has aldabras and sulllys together, popcorn has sullys and leopards together and staten island zoo has leopards with all kinds of african mammals and red foots with iguanas birds and monkeys.

 

[TiyahLove]

Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

I will get back to this tomorrow as it is a blatent attack on the poster. its late here but want to clear my name of the misguided fool you make me out to be.
I 100% stand by everything I have said above and will go into detail tomorrow without insulting as that's my nature.
Then I will ask you for scientific reports and PUBLISHED papers (we all have vet bills) for all the claims you have made so I'd get googling if I was you. I have first hand experience, you don't.
Perhaps the US has changed it's laws regarding the importation of wild African reptiles, how would I know, I'm just from Ireland. Highly Doubt it though.

You have no experience with keeping the two together, I do. And I wish Leopards were like the rabbits you make them out to be but unfortunately if leopards are anyway stressed they will not breed successfully, the more common out come is egg bound females.

Sulcatas are not the monsters you make them out to be, please please please show me evidence of the "often" times when a sulcata has killed a leopard.

What you mightn't realise is that most tortoises will experience aggression if kept in numbers same species or not. So these 100pound sulcatas are not the killers you say they are. They are no different to the 300g Hermanni that flips the 200g hermanni on its back. This can be fatal in both instances but a sulcata is no more likely to kill a leopard than any other same species kept together.

This post was aimed to be another way of thinking and for anyone reading please remember that in keeping these wonderful animals it is not all black and white as is made out above, there is a lot of grey which needs to be explored within reason.

On that note, good night to all.

The reason you never hear about a sulcata killing a leopard is because they are not supposed to be together! They don't live together in the wild, they may cross paths and that's it.

Sulcatas are monsters. They are huge and agressive towards EACH OTHER!!! As adults males will kill for food and territory. If a sulcata gets flipped in the wild they are done for. They will bake before they ever get flipped over.


Leopards and sulcatas are like rabbits. With good enough temps and a good supply of food they will breed. As long as they can find a good egg laying site they will not become egg bound.

Your arrogance is making me flaming mad. Tom does have first hand experiences with this from trial and error. He has been breeding tortoises since before yours probably even hatched. Judging by your leopards shells it seems you had no knowledge of proper husbandry. And with tortoises they can be stressed without showing it. They don't have to physically fight it's all a mind game they eff with each other's heads until one just flat out dies from starving itself to death or stress related injury. Don't you see? People on here have been here for YEARS and you may think you know it all but your experience is 1 in 1,000,000. You've had success but hundreds of others have not. I have seen sulcatas kill each other in a matter of minutes. They are equip to kill other males and that's exactly what they will do. You will see one day that what you are doing is very wrong. On a side note did anyone care to mention sulcatas are SOLITARY ANIMALS. ALONEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Tom]

Ireland? Really? Is that a regular hotbed of sulcata and leopard activity and I just don't know about it? There are more sulcatas and leopards within 50 miles of my house than in your entire country. Are you kidding me? You really think that in more than 20 years of keeping these two species that I haven't at some point tried keeping them together? I already told you that I used to think like you do. What is it you think you have first hand experience with that I don't?

We've already been over the scientific evidence thing in many other threads. It doesn't exist. Why would it? There is no money to be made by telling individual tortoise owners why their pet died, so who would fund such a wide spread study? No one. Do you have scientific evidence to prove that what I've seen with my own eyes didn't happen? That's no different than what you are asking. Do you wish to refute the necropsy reports that I have seen?

The laws have not changed here. I believe importation of wild sulcatas and leopards stopped in '98 or '99. But they are very easy to keep here and there are still thousands of direct imports walking around here, in Arizona and in Florida, as well as other places. That you don't know this makes me question anything else you assert.

Here, in this climate, I don't know anybody that has a male and female leopard together that doesn't eventually get eggs. Maybe where you are its different. I will grant you that as I have ZERO experience keeping any species of tortoise in a cold clammy climate. But in sunny warm areas where they live outside all year, like here, they are very easy to breed. VERY easy. So much so that many people get tired of all the babies and incubating and they get rid of their "egg factories" because of it. If this is not the case for your tortoises, perhaps something is a little "off". Maybe the stress of living with sulcatas is the difference. Maybe its the climate? Maybe the indoor housing for most of the year? Lack of UV? I don't know. I only know that it DOES work just fine here. Egg bound leopards almost never happen here. It is certainly possible, but very uncommon. From what I have seen, egg binding typically happens with indoor housed tortoises that hold on to their eggs because they don't feel comfortable laying them in their small indoor enclosures. I'm talking about sulcatas and leopards here, not chacos, or anything else.

What evidence of sulcata aggression can I show you? I don't have pictures of dead bodies, if that is what you would require as proof. I don't think you understand how it works over here. In some areas of our country it is very common for everyday regular folks to keep tortoises. Several of my neighbors have them. My friends and family have them. My dog training mentor even had one until it died because he didn't listen to me and let it get too cold in winter. Grandmothers keep them, city folks keep them, country folks keep them. They are everywhere. My career has me working closely with many veterinarians. They all know of my tortoise obsession, so I get to hear all of their stories too. It is in this "culture" of tortoises that I relate my stories of sulcata aggression. I am not saying that in every case they will immediately assault any other tortoise on sight, but I AM saying that sometimes they will. That you don't know this makes me question your amount of experience and your husbandry practices. Its great that you've been keeping a few tortoises in your garden for a long time, but are you basing your assertions on just that? My assertions are based on thousands of tortoises in all manner of keeping situations.

What you mightn't realise is that most tortoises will experience aggression if kept in numbers same species or not. So these 100pound sulcatas are not the killers you say they are. They are no different to the 300g Hermanni that flips the 200g hermanni on its back. This can be fatal in both instances but a sulcata is no more likely to kill a leopard than any other same species kept together.

You think I don't understand how interaction works in tortoise groups? All I have is groups of tortoises. Hermanni males are indeed very aggressive. I have not seen much aggression out of 200 or 300 gram juveniles, but its certainly possible. I have only seen hermanni, or other Testudo, be able to actually kill another tortoise over the long term. They certainly bite, flip and ram, but they don't possess the mass or strength to split their opponent wide open the way that sulcatas do. Come to think of it, I've never seen a leopard outright kill another leopard, but sulcatas do it whenever they are given the chance, which luckily is not that often since most people have the sense to not give them the chance. We have had threads here in the past with photos.

I need to clarify my statement that you referenced before: When I said they do this often, what I meant was they do this often when they are given the chance. Meaning that aggression from sulcata toward leopard is common in the rare circumstance that they have access to each other. They are not often given the chance because most people know better. I should have been clearer about that.


I don't know why you feel this is an attack, blatant or otherwise, on you. It is NOT. I don't know you. I've never interacted with you. I have no problem with you. I have a a problem with your statements that a sulcata can't or won't kill a leopard or any other tortoise. You may not have seen it yet, but it happens all the time. Monsters? Not at all. Large powerful animals with a territorial aggressive instinct? Yes. I have a problem with your assertion that a CB tortoise can't have any pathogen that would make another tortoise sick. Blatantly false. Completely ridiculous. The problem is that a person new to tortoise keeping might read that statement from you and think its true. Its absolutely not true. I have a problem with your belief that a physical and fecal exam by a vet is your standard that a tortoise is clean and disease free and ready to be mixed with other tortoises. You are clearly not aware of what diseases exist "out there", how they are diagnosed and how they are carried or transmitted. Again, you spouting off your ignorance on the internet could do harm to someone's tortoise who doesn't yet know better. I cannot in good conscience stand by and let that happen. I too was once as ignorant as you are about this subject, but hearing cases from tortoise vets and witnessing tortoises die horrible deaths has educated me. I hope that you can be educated without have to go through what I have seen some people go through.

In short, I am arguing the subject matter, not attacking the person. I'm not insulting you, belittling you, or defaming your character in any way. You are making false, incorrect statements, and I am refuting them. That is all. The bottom line, as has already been stated, is that mixing species is a gamble. Not everyone will crash and burn, but some will. Some people, like you, have gotten away with it for whatever reason, but that does not mean that everyone will get away with it. You are referring to your single case that has thus far had a happy ending. I am referring to dozens of other cases that I have seen first hand through friends, family, other tortoise keepers and vets who are paid to care for these sick or injured tortoises. We should not be arguing whether this is always safe or always fatal. Its neither. The only room for argument is what percentage of the time does mixing species end in failure. Each individual will likely have a different number based on what they have seen in their lifetime. From what I have seen in my lifetime, the risk is far too great, and the cost of failure can be horrendous.

If you want to come on here and say that you have been mixing species for 20 years and as far as you know it has not caused any harm in YOUR colony, that is fine. I won't argue. But to come on here and condone and promote a practice that I and many others KNOW to be potentially harmful from a vast amount of first hand experience is not going to fly.

 

[Mallykc]

I have a question that goes along with this subject that I've always wondered about. Someday I would like a Leo as well and although I plan to house them seperate, can they mingle occasionally? Like if I let them out of their own enclosures to graze on a different part of the yard together... Is

 

[Tom]

I have a question that goes along with this subject that I've always wondered about. Someday I would like a Leo as well and although I plan to house them seperate, can they mingle occasionally? Like if I let them out of their own enclosures to graze on a different part of the yard together... Is

I wouldn't do this. I would keep them each in their own enclosure. The tortoises get no benefit from this practice, and it could give them a disease, parasites or just stress from being in the presence of "invaders".

Sometimes seemingly healthy tortoises can carry pathogens and show no outward signs of any problem. Many tortoise diseases do not show up in a fecal exam. Even parasites sometimes don't show up in a fecal exam if the parasite didn't shed any eggs during that particular bowel movement. So an experienced vet could examine the tortoise, do multiple fecal checks, and still never see any problem. Meanwhile that tortoise could be carrying some potentially deadly pathogen. Your other tortoises, or another species of tortoise, might not have the same resistance to that pathogen, or ability to cope with it. A tortoise who is suffering from chronic stress at being forced to live with other tortoises, especially aggressive tortoises of another species, might have a hampered immune system and is even more likely to succumb.

This is actually a big problem. Many tortoise owners take their tortoise to a vet, do a fecal exam, and then go home feeling like everything is great when their experienced vet proclaims their tortoise "healthy". There could be a lot going on in there that is not externally visible.

 

[tortoisetime565]

I really did not mean to strike up an argument. I like both view points. But I do have to agree with Tom. As much as I would like to have a bunch of tortoises that were all housed together he is right. They can still get pathogens. I instead of getting a leopard want to get an Aldabra. I could easily see a 500 pound Aldabra squishing a 100 pound sulcata. I do not however plan on letting that happen. I know that I have kept my tortoises together in the past. But I am learning. I do not want any of my babies to die or come of any harm. I do think that mingling is okay. My tortoises have a basking balcony and the redfoots can get up with the sulcata. Very rarely do they ever mix in the same cage once done. However, my sulcata will NOT eat unless she can see my redfoot Rupert. So I think that sulcatas maybe don't know their own strength. I know that there will be a time that my sulcata will far out grow and weigh my redfoot. But I do not want anything to happen to anyone. I will keep them in separate enclosures. Thank you all for your view points. I apologize for the issues...

 

[Tom]

No need to apologize. There are several tortoise topics that tend to get heated. This is okay as long as everyone is respectful and doesn't start launching personal attacks. I have learned more from threads where people disagree and argue their points out than from any other type of thread. When two people with lots of experience disagree, I think much can be learned from WHY they disagree and precisely what they disagree about. Often the two opponents learn a lot too.

 

[tortoisetime565]

I totally agree! I am learning stuff I didn't know!! I really wish I could keep all my species together as one big family. But I know why I can't. It's for their own good!

 

[Arizona Sulcata]

First off let me say I in no way ever condone mixing species. But let me hit on both sides of the argument briefly without going into detail and then give my two cents...

I have seen a few people mixing Leopards and Sulcatas without issue. As a matter of fact the majority of my Sulcata heard originally came from a guy who mixed the two. You also have "Leopracada" breeders out there that seem to get away with it as well.

Now the other side... people like Tom and many others who have years of experience and even beginners have had trouble mixing the two. Sulcatas are indeed and aggressive bunch. Deaths have occurred so why would they all of a sudden live happily ever after?

Bottom line... if there's a risk why take it? Is it really worth the risk to feel some desire of seeing the lamb and the lion sleep together? If it has caused death before why recreate that scenario? Let's minimalize risk and stick to what we know works instead of trying to tempt fate.