been been a closet reader of this site 4 years, but now a member w/2 4-6(?) year old sulcata tortoises? HELP ME PLZ

[diphrent]

can anybody tell me if those dark spots in the little yellow pentagrams in the middle of the shingles, is shell rot or is it normal/natural?

they’re being soaked right now as the pics were taken

 

[Tom]

can anybody tell me if those dark spots in the little yellow pentagrams in the middle of the shingles, is shell rot or is it normal/natural?

they’re being soaked right now as the pics were taken

I don't see any shell rot or anything out of the ordinary. Shell rot normally occurs on the plastron in overly wet conditions, and it is very uncommon in sulcatas.

They are very undersized for 4-6 year olds. They should never live in pairs. They need to be separated. Here is the care info. Due to their size, I'd continue housing them in individual large closed chambers for a while longer to get the new growth looking better and get their growth going as it should be going.

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[diphrent]

omfg. 1st off (starstruck moment) ive been reading your comments for YEEEEEAAAAARS lol would never of thought you would’ve saw or responded to my 1st post! ))) you are like the tortoise whisperer/god. lol ?

you’re the one who taught me about pyramiding & the humid/wet truck behind preventing it! thank you thank you thank you. can’t even count the times I’ve read your advice & applied it! ❤

but anyways, in regards to their size,

(PLEASE brace yourself this is an INSANELY long response)

I agree 100%. see, the thing was, my very lazy, unfit of a parent father whom I don’t live with, lives with my two little brothers (at the time I wasn’t seeing them regularly) & at the time they were so young, like 8 & 3-4 & my dad bought them these tortoises shown here.

it was HORROR. they literally had them for like 5-6 months in a TINY, damp. 5 x 5 inch cardboard box with newspaper as lining. no lamp. no sun. NOTHING. it truly affected me deeply as I love animals & rescue them. there was NO water in there & I immediately asked my brother when the last time they’ve drank water. his response? “THEY DONT DRINK WATER” ???

needless to say, I was pissed af & horrified. immediately got a little container of water & held their heads to it & they LITERALLY put their heads under water completely for 5 minutes!!!! It was so sad.

I taught them about them about how they needed a heat lamp/sun & a bigger enclosure etc. that day I bought them a 10 gallon tank (they were tiny babies) & a lamp!

my dad had the AUDACITY to argue with me in front of my brothers telling me “they are not cold blooded but warm blooded” ! I was so dumbfounded at his ignorance but not surprised cus he’s a horrible dad. ?

so anyways, thought all was good, & as mentioned I don’t live with them & did all I could at the time since I left them with all they needed(or at least thought I did) so weeks pass& I come over & they tell me their mom (dads new wife & not my mom) (she’s also clueless that doesn’t care about animals) doesn’t let them use the lamp for the tortoises because it “wastes too much electricity” LIKE WTFFFFF ??

I was livid!!!!! I then politely told her in English (my dad & his wife are Vietnamese & are very foreign and cold hearted when it comes to animals) that they needed it to survive. so anyways, lamp in time ends up dying & I started seeing them more regularly because I felt like I had to be there to take care of these tortoises cus I felt so guilty.

I got them A WAY BIGGER like 60-80 gallon tank or more & made it so sick & dope for them etc I would take them out in the sun every time I visited (every weekend) etc

so, at that point is started to relax my guilt & felt content knowing (thinking) they had all they needed. sooo you’re not going to believe this. I come back weeks or whatever amount of time later and.... THEIR MOM TOOK THEM OUT OF THE HUGE TANK & PUT THEM BACK IN A TINY CARDBOARD BOX !! she said the tank “took up too much room” ???

i know, I was just as disturbed, confused, angry as you are reading this. for 1, WHY do you buy kids animals IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE care of them even when you’re NOT even paying for the care as someone else is?! ungrateful & UNFIT & EVIL!

so that was IT! that day my dad told me they were going on a trip to Vegas & asked if I could “watch” the tortoises. of course I said yes as it was now my opportunity to steal them & give them a real life. my brothers were insanely attached & in love with them which is why I didn’t really remove them prior , plus I lived in an apartment at the time and had 4 cats & a dog & a bird.

but I kept them, they lived on my patio, got more sun the first week they’ve ever had in their entire lives! Itook good care of them & always referenced your advise, Tom ❤ Thank you.


when cold I brought them Inside, etc. during their time at my apt they grew TONS!!!!

now, I live in a house & it’s been like 6 months or so since living in the apartments, they have their OWN outside environment I created & I swear to god LITERALLY quadrupled in size!!! ??
& one was always WAY tinier than the other & she is actually BIGGER than the other now ! CRAZY

they actually truly get along REALLY well and follow each other and choose to sleep in the same burrow. never fight & truly like each other? is that normal? I attached a pic of enclosure tell me what you think?

so yeah, THATS the long *** story as to why they’re that size, I’m not confident about their age but it’s definitely around those years I’ve mentioned above. I’ve done all I could for them at the time so it was so emotional for me seeing them finally on dirt , Being able to dig and burrow, etc! ??

they’re now inside with a heat pad as they nights are pretty cold.

ones name is Timmy & the other banana. (little brothers named them)

but thank you for reaching out to me & if you’ve made it this far in this essay, congratulations. hahaha ?

isn’t it sad that some parents like that exist?
(also posted pic of them with sandal to show size comparison)

 

[Yossarian]

They dont follow one another and sleep in the same burrow because they get along. They do this because they are competing for territory and trying to harrass one another until one leaves, the fact that neither can leave means nothing to them, the bullying will continue. Sulcatas can kill each other, keeping them together is not safe

 

[Yvonne G]

omfg. 1st off (starstruck moment) ive been reading your comments for YEEEEEAAAAARS lol would never of thought you would’ve saw or responded to my 1st post! ))) you are like the tortoise whisperer/god. lol ?

you’re the one who taught me about pyramiding & the humid/wet truck behind preventing it! thank you thank you thank you. can’t even count the times I’ve read your advice & applied it! ❤

but anyways, in regards to their size,

(PLEASE brace yourself this is an INSANELY long response)

I agree 100%. see, the thing was, my very lazy, unfit of a parent father whom I don’t live with, lives with my two little brothers (at the time I wasn’t seeing them regularly) & at the time they were so young, like 8 & 3-4 & my dad bought them these tortoises shown here.

it was HORROR. they literally had them for like 5-6 months in a TINY, damp. 5 x 5 inch cardboard box with newspaper as lining. no lamp. no sun. NOTHING. it truly affected me deeply as I love animals & rescue them. there was NO water in there & I immediately asked my brother when the last time they’ve drank water. his response? “THEY DONT DRINK WATER” ???

needless to say, I was pissed af & horrified. immediately got a little container of water & held their heads to it & they LITERALLY put their heads under water completely for 5 minutes!!!! It was so sad.

I taught them about them about how they needed a heat lamp/sun & a bigger enclosure etc. that day I bought them a 10 gallon tank (they were tiny babies) & a lamp!

my dad had the AUDACITY to argue with me in front of my brothers telling me “they are not cold blooded but warm blooded” ! I was so dumbfounded at his ignorance but not surprised cus he’s a horrible dad. ?

so anyways, thought all was good, & as mentioned I don’t live with them & did all I could at the time since I left them with all they needed(or at least thought I did) so weeks pass& I come over & they tell me their mom (dads new wife & not my mom) (she’s also clueless that doesn’t care about animals) doesn’t let them use the lamp for the tortoises because it “wastes too much electricity” LIKE WTFFFFF ??

I was livid!!!!! I then politely told her in English (my dad & his wife are Vietnamese & are very foreign and cold hearted when it comes to animals) that they needed it to survive. so anyways, lamp in time ends up dying & I started seeing them more regularly because I felt like I had to be there to take care of these tortoises cus I felt so guilty.

I got them A WAY BIGGER like 60-80 gallon tank or more & made it so sick & dope for them etc I would take them out in the sun every time I visited (every weekend) etc

so, at that point is started to relax my guilt & felt content knowing (thinking) they had all they needed. sooo you’re not going to believe this. I come back weeks or whatever amount of time later and.... THEIR MOM TOOK THEM OUT OF THE HUGE TANK & PUT THEM BACK IN A TINY CARDBOARD BOX !! she said the tank “took up too much room” ???

i know, I was just as disturbed, confused, angry as you are reading this. for 1, WHY do you buy kids animals IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE care of them even when you’re NOT even paying for the care as someone else is?! ungrateful & UNFIT & EVIL!

so that was IT! that day my dad told me they were going on a trip to Vegas & asked if I could “watch” the tortoises. of course I said yes as it was now my opportunity to steal them & give them a real life. my brothers were insanely attached & in love with them which is why I didn’t really remove them prior , plus I lived in an apartment at the time and had 4 cats & a dog & a bird.

but I kept them, they lived on my patio, got more sun the first week they’ve ever had in their entire lives! Itook good care of them & always referenced your advise, Tom ❤ Thank you.


when cold I brought them Inside, etc. during their time at my apt they grew TONS!!!!

now, I live in a house & it’s been like 6 months or so since living in the apartments, they have their OWN outside environment I created & I swear to god LITERALLY quadrupled in size!!! ??
& one was always WAY tinier than the other & she is actually BIGGER than the other now ! CRAZY

they actually truly get along REALLY well and follow each other and choose to sleep in the same burrow. never fight & truly like each other? is that normal? I attached a pic of enclosure tell me what you think?

so yeah, THATS the long *** story as to why they’re that size, I’m not confident about their age but it’s definitely around those years I’ve mentioned above. I’ve done all I could for them at the time so it was so emotional for me seeing them finally on dirt , Being able to dig and burrow, etc! ??

they’re now inside with a heat pad as they nights are pretty cold.

ones name is Timmy & the other banana. (little brothers named them)

but thank you for reaching out to me & if you’ve made it this far in this essay, congratulations. hahaha ?

isn’t it sad that some parents like that exist?
(also posted pic of them with sandal to show size comparison)

View attachment 312551View attachment 312552View attachment 312553View attachment 312554View attachment 312555View attachment 312556

Moderator note: Your bad language was deleted. Please remember this is a family oriented forum, and not at all like Facebook. We don't allow bad language here

 

[Maggie3fan]

Come on now...if you've been reading Tom opinion for YEEEEEAAAAARS you should know by now that bullying is not necessarily obvious to keepers. They do NOT sleep together because they like each other, one is a bully. No doubt. You need to separate them now. They are pyramiding, they need soaking on a daily basis, they need supplemental food added as I don't see a meal out there, they need a SAFE secure enclosed place for them to sleep. I congratulate you for trying to save these tortoises. Oh and you're in Riverside with 2 small tortoises, I would make sure my tortoises were locked in at night and safe from the predators, not necessarily 4 legged ones

 

[diphrent]

Come on now...if you've been reading Tom opinion for YEEEEEAAAAARS you should know by now that bullying is not necessarily obvious to keepers. They do NOT sleep together because they like each other, one is a bully. No doubt. You need to separate them now. They are pyramiding, they need soaking on a daily basis, they need supplemental food added as I don't see a meal out there, they need a SAFE secure enclosed place for them to sleep. I congratulate you for trying to save these tortoises. Oh and you're in Riverside with 2 small tortoises, I would make sure my tortoises were locked in at night and safe from the predators, not necessarily 4 legged ones

Come on now...if you've been reading Tom opinion for YEEEEEAAAAARS you should know by now that bullying is not necessarily obvious to keepers. They do NOT sleep together because they like each other, one is a bully. No doubt. You need to separate them now. They are pyramiding, they need soaking on a daily basis, they need supplemental food added as I don't see a meal out there, they need a SAFE secure enclosed place for them to sleep. I congratulate you for trying to save these tortoises. Oh and you're in Riverside with 2 small tortoises, I would make sure my tortoises were locked in at night and safe from the predators, not necessarily 4 legged ones

not understanding the condescending attitude. but thank you for your reply. I will have to strongly disagree about them pyramiding. as it was much worse before & I essentially saved them & it’s only going away from the time I rescued them to now, from what I can see, so you’re only seeing the residual effects that will be gone in a year or so.


& when I said “YEAAAAAAAAARS” did I mean I’ve read EVERY-SINGLE-ONE of his posts? LOL

let’s be realistic & not petty. thank you.

also, in terms of bullying doesnt there HAVE to be outward signs not just “they shouldn’t be together cus BULLYING” with zero signs present.

So it’s 100% unheard of for to young sulcatas to live together? truly curious. cus I’ve watched & read where it’s possible & some go against the majority & popular opinion.

oh & in regards to there being “no food” ummm of course there was no food, the tortoises weren’t even out as there was lack of sun.

Rest assured, they eat amazingly well, have their supplements & own garden to choose from in my backyard I planted just for them. ❤️

 

[diphrent]

Moderator note: Your bad language was deleted. Please remember this is a family oriented forum, and not at all like Facebook. We don't allow bad language here

I hate facebook. doesn’t matter the site, my virtual mouth is my virtual mouth. I just have a bad “mouth” lol

thank u for editing it though as I was just emphasizing how horrible the situation was.

a lot of families cuss, btw... like 99% of them.

 

[diphrent]

They dont follow one another and sleep in the same burrow because they get along. They do this because they are competing for territory and trying to harrass one another until one leaves, the fact that neither can leave means nothing to them, the bullying will continue. Sulcatas can kill each other, keeping them together is not safe

what are the outward signs of this though? you can’t just say this a factual reality for all of them if no signs are present.

listen, I’m more than open to creating a whole new space for the other, but I just can’t stand to see them depressed from them not having each other to hold hands or tell secrets like they used to... (KIDDING)

but I will say, I AM open to that but there has to be some sort of outward sign & behavior that substantiates that from THESE TWO PARTICULAR tortoises, not others.

they’re still fairly small & young & wouldn’t the aggression or competitive behavior be apparent by now? I mean, I work from home, very observant & spend hours observing them.


cus I know there are people who disagree with the separation and agree with it. what type of behavior substantiates one another ?

 

[Maggie3fan]

I'm sorry you think I have a condescending attitude, but there ARE signs of bullying...I raised clutches of 20 to 25 Sulcata hatchlings to a year old. They got along fine, but 2 is bad. You have a small one and a bigger one, small one is small because he's being bullied.
You came here looking for help, then get snippy because we don't agree with you and you don't like how I said what I said. I have kept Sulcata for 20 years or so, you asked for help then argue about it.
And a lot of families may cuss, but that does not make it right, and it just means they are lacking a grasp of the English language, and it's offensive. A real man watches his language in front of women and children.

 

[Tom]

omfg. 1st off (starstruck moment) ive been reading your comments for YEEEEEAAAAARS lol would never of thought you would’ve saw or responded to my 1st post! ))) you are like the tortoise whisperer/god. lol ?

you’re the one who taught me about pyramiding & the humid/wet truck behind preventing it! thank you thank you thank you. can’t even count the times I’ve read your advice & applied it! ❤

but anyways, in regards to their size,

(PLEASE brace yourself this is an INSANELY long response)

I agree 100%. see, the thing was, my very lazy, unfit of a parent father whom I don’t live with, lives with my two little brothers (at the time I wasn’t seeing them regularly) & at the time they were so young, like 8 & 3-4 & my dad bought them these tortoises shown here.

it was HORROR. they literally had them for like 5-6 months in a TINY, damp. 5 x 5 inch cardboard box with newspaper as lining. no lamp. no sun. NOTHING. it truly affected me deeply as I love animals & rescue them. there was NO water in there & I immediately asked my brother when the last time they’ve drank water. his response? “THEY DONT DRINK WATER” ???

needless to say, I was pissed af & horrified. immediately got a little container of water & held their heads to it & they LITERALLY put their heads under water completely for 5 minutes!!!! It was so sad.

I taught them about them about how they needed a heat lamp/sun & a bigger enclosure etc. that day I bought them a 10 gallon tank (they were tiny babies) & a lamp!

my dad had the AUDACITY to argue with me in front of my brothers telling me “they are not cold blooded but warm blooded” ! I was so dumbfounded at his ignorance but not surprised cus he’s a horrible dad. ?

so anyways, thought all was good, & as mentioned I don’t live with them & did all I could at the time since I left them with all they needed(or at least thought I did) so weeks pass& I come over & they tell me their mom (dads new wife & not my mom) (she’s also clueless that doesn’t care about animals) doesn’t let them use the lamp for the tortoises because it “wastes too much electricity” LIKE WTFFFFF ??

I was livid!!!!! I then politely told her in English (my dad & his wife are Vietnamese & are very foreign and cold hearted when it comes to animals) that they needed it to survive. so anyways, lamp in time ends up dying & I started seeing them more regularly because I felt like I had to be there to take care of these tortoises cus I felt so guilty.

I got them A WAY BIGGER like 60-80 gallon tank or more & made it so sick & dope for them etc I would take them out in the sun every time I visited (every weekend) etc

so, at that point is started to relax my guilt & felt content knowing (thinking) they had all they needed. sooo you’re not going to believe this. I come back weeks or whatever amount of time later and.... THEIR MOM TOOK THEM OUT OF THE HUGE TANK & PUT THEM BACK IN A TINY CARDBOARD BOX !! she said the tank “took up too much room” ???

i know, I was just as disturbed, confused, angry as you are reading this. for 1, WHY do you buy kids animals IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE care of them even when you’re NOT even paying for the care as someone else is?! ungrateful & UNFIT & EVIL!

so that was IT! that day my dad told me they were going on a trip to Vegas & asked if I could “watch” the tortoises. of course I said yes as it was now my opportunity to steal them & give them a real life. my brothers were insanely attached & in love with them which is why I didn’t really remove them prior , plus I lived in an apartment at the time and had 4 cats & a dog & a bird.

but I kept them, they lived on my patio, got more sun the first week they’ve ever had in their entire lives! Itook good care of them & always referenced your advise, Tom ❤ Thank you.


when cold I brought them Inside, etc. during their time at my apt they grew TONS!!!!

now, I live in a house & it’s been like 6 months or so since living in the apartments, they have their OWN outside environment I created & I swear to god LITERALLY quadrupled in size!!! ??
& one was always WAY tinier than the other & she is actually BIGGER than the other now ! CRAZY

they actually truly get along REALLY well and follow each other and choose to sleep in the same burrow. never fight & truly like each other? is that normal? I attached a pic of enclosure tell me what you think?

so yeah, THATS the long *** story as to why they’re that size, I’m not confident about their age but it’s definitely around those years I’ve mentioned above. I’ve done all I could for them at the time so it was so emotional for me seeing them finally on dirt , Being able to dig and burrow, etc! ??

they’re now inside with a heat pad as they nights are pretty cold.

ones name is Timmy & the other banana. (little brothers named them)

but thank you for reaching out to me & if you’ve made it this far in this essay, congratulations. hahaha ?

isn’t it sad that some parents like that exist?
(also posted pic of them with sandal to show size comparison)

View attachment 312551View attachment 312552View attachment 312553View attachment 312554View attachment 312555View attachment 312556

Well I thank you for the compliments and I'm glad my info helped you and your tortoises. There are lots of great people here on the forum and I see us as one big team of tortoise lovers. It makes me a little uneasy to be singled out as someone special because everyone here is helpful and enthusiastic about tortoises. There are people here that are more knowledgeable and experienced than me, and I look up to them.

Sadly, your story is not unique. We've heard this sort of thing many times here over the years, and it is always inspiring when someone like you tries so hard to help them and do the right thing. We will try to help you help them.

Other members have explained the pair thing. Maggie and Yossarian spelled it out very well. Its time to give them each their own enclosure, both indoors and out.

Heat mats indoors are not safe for tortoises. They need proper indoor enclosures, or you can make a heated night box for them to live in and be outside full time now. You lock them in each night and open the door every morning. Like this:

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tom]

they’re still fairly small & young & wouldn’t the aggression or competitive behavior be apparent by now? I mean, I work from home, very observant & spend hours observing them.

The aggression and competitive behavior IS apparent. Like most people you just don't recognize it yet. Following is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.

 

[Maggie3fan]

The aggression and competitive behavior IS apparent. Like most people you just don't recognize it yet. Following is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one.

Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The aggression is much more subtle. These are solitary animals. Other torts are not seen as friends. They are seen as intruders or competitors for limited resources. Other torts are not wanted, and having them in pairs causes low grade stress that can hamper their immune systems, lessen their appetites, and stunt growth too.

Groups of babies can usually work. It is pairs that are the problem. Its too personal. Groups dynamics are different than pair dynamics.

Thank you Tom. I think this should be a sticky in the Sulcata section. I know I'm gonna copy it. You've simplified information on bullying. Moderator can you stick this?

 

[ColumbiaJane]

what are the outward signs of this though? you can’t just say this a factual reality for all of them if no signs are present.

listen, I’m more than open to creating a whole new space for the other, but I just can’t stand to see them depressed from them not having each other to hold hands or tell secrets like they used to... (KIDDING)

but I will say, I AM open to that but there has to be some sort of outward sign & behavior that substantiates that from THESE TWO PARTICULAR tortoises, not others.

they’re still fairly small & young & wouldn’t the aggression or competitive behavior be apparent by now? I mean, I work from home, very observant & spend hours observing them.


cus I know there are people who disagree with the separation and agree with it. what type of behavior substantiates one another ?

The outward signs are that you look at them one day and one is on his back, dead! I raised 4 hatchlings together, they were doing great for several years and then, one day found one dead on his back. I immediately rehomed two and kept just one, who has lived alone very well for going on 30 years now.