Antakyensis Sex ID

[Tccarolina]

I submitted this earlier this year, but the focus was on the subspecies, not the sex. I assumed I had a male and a female. No breeding activity whatsoever. The tails look to be the same size, with the darker one having a slightly longer tail. He/she definitely has bigger spurs. Now I'm thinking they may be both females. They are both 5 1/4 inches long now.
What do I have?
A male and a female?
Or two females?
If they are both Syrian, could they be from the same area, or would their color differences mean they are from different populations?
1. Darker-Lighter

2. Darker-Lighter

3. Darker-Lighter (ignore the dark coloring on the lighter tortoise's plastron, she ate a lot of spurge, and it makes a black tar that sticks to her plastron. Also, the shell rot on her has healed now) The Darker Tortoise has a slightly more concave plastron maybe?

4. Darker

5. Lighter

6. Lighter-Darker

7. Darker Tortoise

8. Darker Tortoise

9. Lighter Tortoise

10. Lighter Tortoise

Steve

 

[egyptiandan]

The picture with them both upsidedown, male on the left and female on the right. The male is large enough to breed, but the female needs to be at least 6 inches. They look to be from the same area.
I noticed that these 2 are for sale on kingsnake.

Danny

 

[Tccarolina]

Yes, I had them for sale for a while, because I'm not sure about compatibility with my Hermann's. I'm keeping them now, especially since they are from the same area. Do you have any idea on the specific region of Syria?
I'm glad they didn't sell, because I advertised them as a pair, but then as two females, which turns out to be incorrect.

Are you certain (I think I know the answer ) the left is a male? Will his tail get longer, or do those males just have small tails? How come he isn't showing interest in her? Shouldn't he be interested, even if she isn't?

Steve

 

[egyptiandan]

Most likely central Syria. My male did take a bit to get a bigger tail, so I'm thinking your's will be the same. He also spends the whole winter away from the females and still in the late spring he isn't keen on breeding. It takes a female to start ramming him before he gets the idea and even then he doesn't go to town. Trying to breed tortoises is always fun.

Danny

 

[Tccarolina]

Thanks Dan! I like the idea of having semi-locality animals. If my climate is almost identical to Syria's, do you think mine could spend all year outdoors in the future?
My average rainfall is about 12 inches. It falls primarily from late November/December through April. Daily highs in mid-summer are 95-105 and the nightly midsummer lows are 60-75. January highs are in the 40-55 range, with nightly lows from 30-45. My outdoor habitat is landscaped with with California natives plants.
Steve

 

[Crazy1]

Steve, Danny may have a different outlook I live in CA and my outdoor habitat is lanscaped with CA plants. I would not leave my Greeks out with the highs in the 40-55 range and the lows in the 30-45 range. That temp is too low. I have had my Antakyensis and Jordanian crosses have come down with respiratory infections if the temps are low below 60 and it is damp, let alone wet.

 

[egyptiandan]

Nope I agree Robyn My Syrian Antakyans don't take the cool weather well. Like Robyn, mine will get respiratory infections if they get below 60F to many nights in a row. The same goes for true Goldens.
Though the crosses, Jordanians and Lebanese Antakyans can take nights into the 50'sF no problem

Danny

 

[Tccarolina]

Here is a map of Syria and surrounding countries with selected cities in red. Below are individual city's climate graphs. I have to say my climate is well suited for any tortoises except those originating near the coast. The big problem is I don't know where my tortoises originated. If they originated near the coast then they probably wouldn't work well.

Here are the climate graphs for those cities. I'm not far from Fresno in California. That chart is shown first. I had to leave out a few, because I'm only allowed to post 10 pics at a time.
Fresno

Aleppo

Latakia and Hims

Bsharri

Beirut

Damascus

Haifa

Mafraq

Amman

Jerusalem

 

[egyptiandan]

You can always try it Just have some Baytril handy

Danny

 

[Crazy1]

Yep you can try, but like I said I live in San Bernardino CA and my temps are not much different from yours. I made the mistake of trying two of my crosses outside later than I usually allow them (I think kinda the same mind set as you) and they both ended up with resp. Infections. Please understand I feel as long as you have the facts and understand that this experiment may cause you; the cost of a vet visit (please have one picked out before hand that is Tort smart), medications (Baytil), and the inconvinence of giving shots for a couple of weeks, plus your torts being uncomfortable, as well as the increase in their temps while they recover. Oh and the worry then I feel you are making an informed decision, and that is up to you. Oh one ohter thing I forgot to mention is the fact that even in the wild some torts are lost due to temp/humidity/rainfall (evniormental conditions).

 

[Tccarolina]

No, I'm not going to hibernate them outside this year. I do know some people in San Jose that hibernate their golden greeks outdoors. Also, there is this article. http://www.tortoisereserve.org/captivehu...greek.html
Have both of you had this problem consistantly, or was it just the first year? And the symptoms were a runny nose at first? I wonder why others have had success at hibernating with golden greeks.
Since I acquired this pair in May, they've been outdoors. They chowed down on all the weeds in their pen, including a lot of spotted spurge. Once I noticed it on a high-oxalic acid list, I tried to remove most of it. They gained 75 grams and a quarter of an inch each, and by the beginning of August, they were both 5 1/4 inches and 525 grams. Since then, they appeared to go into estaevation, and stay buried all the time. They have clear eyes, dry noses, and appear normal when I dig them out, but they've been slowly losing weight. If put in a tub with romaine or collard greens they will eat. I soak them, and they lose weight when soaking (they must be eliminating waste/water). They will gain a little weight with the lettuce.
But as soon as I release them, they beeline for one of their favorite spots to burrow in. Is this normal behavior? I would think there would be some seasonal fall activity. My Hermann's are still active.
I wormed them the first round a few days ago, and that may cause a change. We'll see.

Steve