Hi--I am new to the forum but not to tortoises. On my second with a nice little Greek (Otto) after losing my red foot. Otto is doing fine (about a year old). Thinking of getting two more yearling female red foots to raise together. I know the issues with male/female but would two females from the same breeder/same age be ok? Thanks for all your valuable insight so far!
Another newbie to the forum....
- Thread starter snowman04
- Start date
Thomas tortoise
Well-Known Member
Welcome! 😀 there is a simple answer to your question. No. two females will not work Tortoises should never be kept in pairs no matter what kind of tort. Three females would work. But you cant tell the gender of a yealing tortoise no matter what kind of tort. Maybe just maybe a 2 or three year old tortoise. It all depends on the size but i think you usally have to wait till they are about 5-8 years old. @ZEROPILOT knows more about redfoots than... probably anyone on this forum.
Thanks, Thomas. I will most likely check around for a redfoot rescue then.
Hi! You can try the two, but three or more are better. When you have more then one, you must always be ready to separate. There are things to increase your chances of success, one of them being the type you get. The redfoot/cherryhead are one of the better choices.
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2014
- Messages
- 29,128
- Location (City and/or State)
- South Eastern Florida (U.S.A.)/Rock Hill S.C.
The issue really begins with sexual maturity.
Several females or immature males can often live together with lots and lots of space. But very few tortoises get along after maturity. Almost no males and even Redfoot
Welcome!
Maddoggy
Active Member
Hi welcome to the forum, Im a bit of a newbie myself. Before you make any tortoise additions it would be wise to run your issues in font of this forum.They could and probably will help you avoid heartache and complications with your torts
Tnx! That's why I am here...
Maddoggy
Active Member
Hey guys I gotta question now we are in to gender identity. What is the earliest you can tell gender on a sulcata? I hope im not butting in ??
Thomas tortoise
Well-Known Member
I believe when its 9 inches. @Tom?
Usually 14-16 inches for sulcata.
Maddoggy
Active Member
Thanks ,Tom have you ever used your incubation temperature to predetermine the gender of your hatchlings? And how reliable is it?
I tend to incubate on the warm side for mostly females, but not too warm.
Incubation temperatures have been studied and are known for sulcatas and Galapagos tortoises. Some work has also been done with radiata and platynota, but I am still not clear on that. @zovick may be able to provide more insight on the latter two species.
I do know that outside of lab grade accurate equipment, results can vary a lot. A change of one or two degrees can swing things tremendously as far as TSD is concerned. My home made incubator is NOT lab grade accurate. I don't mind some seasonal or daily fluctuations, and anecdotally, there is growing evidence that minor temperature fluctuations during incubation may even be beneficial. About 80-90% of my platynota clutches give me 100% hatch rates, so I'm not inclined to change things a lot. Earlier this year I hatched a total of 58 platynota from 59 eggs. I actually hatch 13 babies from 12 eggs in one clutch!!! Not kidding. Twins! That clutch had a 108% hatch rate.
Maddoggy
Active Member
Thanks
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2013
- Messages
- 3,398
TSD is quite accurate in all 3 types of Star Tortoises. 89-90F produces females while 84-85F produces males. I have mentioned this on TFO somewhere else fairly recently:I tend to incubate on the warm side for mostly females, but not too warm.
Incubation temperatures have been studied and are known for sulcatas and Galapagos tortoises. Some work has also been done with radiata and platynota, but I am still not clear on that. @zovick may be able to provide more insight on the latter two species.
I do know that outside of lab grade accurate equipment, results can vary a lot. A change of one or two degrees can swing things tremendously as far as TSD is concerned. My home made incubator is NOT lab grade accurate. I don't mind some seasonal or daily fluctuations, and anecdotally, there is growing evidence that minor temperature fluctuations during incubation may even be beneficial. About 80-90% of my platynota clutches give me 100% hatch rates, so I'm not inclined to change things a lot. Earlier this year I hatched a total of 58 platynota from 59 eggs. I actually hatch 13 babies from 12 eggs in one clutch!!! Not kidding. Twins! That clutch had a 108% hatch rate.
"I don't believe I ever published anything on TSD in platynota, but I do have a good bit of experience breeding all 3 types of Star Tortoises. I never used anything but a still-air Hovabator to incubate my eggs and did not have the high tech digital thermostatic controls available today. I used Schultheis thermometers which were in those days considered the state-of-the-art, most accurate mercury thermometers available. We used those same Schultheis thermometers to record the body temperatures of turtles in the field when doing Bog Turtle research studies, etc. Each thermometer was glass with real mercury inside and came in an aluminum padded tubular case for field use.
At any rate, I used one of the Schultheis thermometers in each incubator and monitored the temps daily or even more often via the sight windows. I also made certain my incubators were kept in a room with virtually no temperature fluctuations of the ambient air. I can say without any doubt that every Star Tortoise (which I was able to track to adulthood) that I hatched which was incubated at 89F turned out to be female and all those incubated at 84-85F turned out to be male."
TSD works as a rule, but is NOT as reliable in Radiated Tortoises as it is in Star Tortoises. One of my biggest CB females was incubated at 82F.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. The temps listed here for stars are about the same as those for sulcatas. These temps seem to be commonly thought to produce females at the upper range and males at the lower range for most species. At least that is what people tell me when they incubate pretty much any species for male or female. So my question to you is: Why do we see so many platynota turn out all male when they are "incubated for female" by the breeders at 89-90 degrees? I bought 14 "incubated for female" at the temps you listed and got 8.6. @G-stars here on the forum ended up with 15.0 a few years back and all were incubated for female.
I have no doubt about your results, but I keep seeing example after example recently over the last few years with platynota that demonstrate otherwise.
@Markw84 Would you mind sharing your findings? I'd really like to get this sorted out. @zovick is obviously the most reliable of reliable sources of info, but I can't explain what I've seen. I know that you've been keeping track of some of yours.
Do the majority of breeders simply have thermometers that are a few degrees off? Does it have to do with the diapause temps or duration before incubation? @zovick what was your diapause routine for platynota? What sort of hatch rates did you get?
I've produced 50+84+58 to date, but I only know the sex of 2 out of all of those. Both are male. I incubate at a constant 88 hoping for mostly females, but a few males too. My diapause break consists of setting the shoe box of eggs in damp vermiculite on top of the grandfather clock near my front door for 4-8 weeks. Room temp can be as low as 66 in winter and as high as 82 in summer, and it varies day to night. I try to amass several shoe boxes, each with two clutches in it, and put them in the incubator at the same time.
If anyone reading this has bought babies from me and knows the sexes, please chime in. Thanks to all who are sharing their knowledge and experience in this discussion. Thanks to @snowman04 for getting the conversation started.
Maddoggy
Active Member
Could I get an explanation on diapause. I tried to research it on this forum and didn't get much info
The eggs of some tortoise species need a cooling period before they can be incubated at warm temperatures. For these species, if you collect the eggs and put them directly into and incubator they will not develop and hatch. How cool the eggs must be kept and for how long is a matter of some debate. Different breeders do it different ways, and I enjoy comparing and contrasting strategies, thought processes and results. We all learn from sharing what we've attempted and how well it worked.
South African leopards, platynota, radiata, Chersina, and I believe chacos are examples of species that need a diapause period of coolness before development can begin. In the wild this ensure that eggs laid in fall do not begin to develop in warm fall weather, and then stop when winter temperatures arrives. Instead these eggs just sit there with no sign of life or any development even when the ground is still warm in summer and fall. After the winter cooling period, when warm weather returns in spring and the ground warms up, THEN these eggs begin developing, and they then hatch at the optimal time of year the weather is warm and food and cover is plentiful.
Species like DTs, Russians, sulcatas, and regular leopards do not need a diapause, but I have found that even these species actually benefit from it. @Neal told me that he had increased hatch rates when he left some leopard eggs in the ground for several months and only dug them up in June to be placed into his incubator. I tried this multiple times with sulcata eggs and it worked for them too. Sulcatas lay in winter here. December through May usually. If December eggs are left in the ground in a sunny spot, they will hatch in late September or early October after the heat of summer. Winter ground temps here are around 50F. Ground temps in the part of Africa where sulcatas come from are consistently 80-85 year round, so I have no idea why this works with them, but it does. I left my winter laid eggs in the ground for 1-4 months, and then dug them up, let them sit at room temp for a week or two, and then popped them into the incubator. Hatch rates were always near 100%.
Diapause is a term describing suspended or arrested develop for eggs of some tortoise species. We "break" the diapause by cooling the eggs to the right temperature for the right amount of time, and then gradually warming them up to incubation temperatures. This varies by species, and we are still learning all the time.
