a veterinary pathologist opinion....
- Thread starter mark1
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Watching from start to end. Thank you for sharing!
There are some slow parts since it is more of a free wheeling discussion than a presentation but it is definitely worth listening to. There is some discussion of the challenges in dealing with veterinarians that are applicable to many of the threads on this forum. Also lots of talk of emerging diseases in tortoises (and turtles too).
The cheloniacast group has a podcast/video they did with Dr. Elliot Jacobson that is another fantastic resource for tortoise disease information. That one is almost 4 hours long so maybe steer clear of that one @TammyJ
The cheloniacast group has a podcast/video they did with Dr. Elliot Jacobson that is another fantastic resource for tortoise disease information. That one is almost 4 hours long so maybe steer clear of that one @TammyJ
i could watch that whole video , but i could not watch a movie that lasted over an hour 20 minutes........ i could read an 800 page technical book , but i couldn't even read "of mice or men", or "animal farm" in school......i have an entire room of my late wife's books, novels and biographies, takes imagination to read and watch that stuff, i don't have that........It immediately started putting me to sleep. But that's just me...!
i'm planning on watching that too, i've read a lot of these guys work.... the videos are pretty cool, to me......
i never knew stuff like that was there .......
Thanks for sharing this.
I really like Dr Oz. The times I've spoken with him in the past, he was extremely willing to help and take time to really understand my concerns. We need more folks like him doing work on tortoise diseases.
i watched the 4 hr one , that took me 2x to get through it , due to time ....... it was excellent ... i doubt my own conclusions/opinions until i see folks like these validate them...... i've read a lot of Jacobsons authored/co-authored papers , was nice to see him talk about them and himself........ any veterinarian i ever personally knew had a lifelong love of animals......
the thought that comes to my mind after watching this one....... " an inconvenient truth"..............
It has been a long time since I watched this one. Which part are you taking about?
actually all three i seen contained a fair amount of "inconvenient truths", unless one believes they are not "truths"....... very cool videos........
I don't think many people realize the state of tortoise keeping these days. I truly believe the situation is dire, maybe even hopeless. Due to bottlenecks in their captive populations many species of tortoise are hopelessly contaminated by any number of serious diseases. Sulcatas, Leopards, Stars, Manouria, Radiateds, Galapagos, Kinyxis, and on an on. "End users" or hobbyists are not having any real diagnostic work done on their sick and dying tortoises. Too many breeders either refuse to do so or know they have serious disease and either don't care and continue to sell, or believe they have cured incurable diseases and continue to sell. They know that no one is going to pay for diagnostic work and they aren't going to get caught. There is too much money and pride involved.
People on this forum advise against performing additional diagnostic work. Don't we think it is strange how many sick and dying tortoises we see? I can assure it it is not all because of substrate, humidity and light bulbs. Doesn't it seem odd how few new members stick around here and continue to post photos of their tortoises grow as they grow and thrive over the years?
A smart person would start working on SPF (specific pathogen free) colonies of some of these animals before it is definitely too late.
well Dustin, i believe it was you wrote on here about tortoises dying, "think disease, disease, disease".......... one of these guys in one of the videos , said when they see young recently acquired tortoises, of the type he knows, die he would guess TINC unless shown otherwise........ i think it was the guy from UF?
these aren't the only 3 guys i've seen speaking on how common these fatal uncurable diseases are in the hobby ......... asymptomatic carriers, scary stuff....... mycoplasma, TINC, herpes uncurable
another one of these guys said, and it's far from the first time i heard this, when you bring in a turtle or tortoise in an advanced state of disease the chances of that tortoise or turtle not having a bacterial infection are slim to none, whether it's the primary cause or not........ that'd be why a competent vet with common sense will put a turtle or tortoise with obvious disease on antibiotics .... they harbor so many types of bacteria that are capable of causing disease , any breakdown in their immune system will most likely lead to a serious bacterial infection....
these 3 guys exude common sense , personally i have yet to run across a vet that didn't come across with common sense...... and i've met more than my share ......
these aren't the only 3 guys i've seen speaking on how common these fatal uncurable diseases are in the hobby ......... asymptomatic carriers, scary stuff....... mycoplasma, TINC, herpes uncurable
another one of these guys said, and it's far from the first time i heard this, when you bring in a turtle or tortoise in an advanced state of disease the chances of that tortoise or turtle not having a bacterial infection are slim to none, whether it's the primary cause or not........ that'd be why a competent vet with common sense will put a turtle or tortoise with obvious disease on antibiotics .... they harbor so many types of bacteria that are capable of causing disease , any breakdown in their immune system will most likely lead to a serious bacterial infection....
these 3 guys exude common sense , personally i have yet to run across a vet that didn't come across with common sense...... and i've met more than my share ......
Perhaps, "competent vet with common sense" is the key here. And much depends on his guessing of pathogen... As Fortaz isn't good against everything, Baytril with its side effects isn't a sugar pill and so on. Then, when antibiotics have done their job there is a good chance of fungal infection blooming. And with organs failure it's even more complicated as medications metabolism is very different. It still three steps ahead of "carrot soaks". However, with unfortunately the same outcome.
There are established and experimental protocols for treating various diseases, the issue is with diagnostics so a vet can select the right one. Dr. Oz mentioned that was talking about TINC.
I really wish there were some vets here on TFO, yet I understand why there aren't any.
Thank you mark1 and Dustin for sharing the links - I have my "weekend playlist" now. If you find anything else worth reading or watching, please share.
There are established and experimental protocols for treating various diseases, the issue is with diagnostics so a vet can select the right one. Dr. Oz mentioned that was talking about TINC.
I really wish there were some vets here on TFO, yet I understand why there aren't any.
Thank you mark1 and Dustin for sharing the links - I have my "weekend playlist" now. If you find anything else worth reading or watching, please share.
maybe it's because of where i live, i've never met a vet without common sense? it seems to be a prerequisite for the job around here...........the vet i use here has 30 dr's, i've used like 5 since i've been going there 1992, they all strike me as nothing short of brilliant......
baytril is one of the safer antibiotics used , and probably the most studied one used in reptiles , along with the most used...... unless the animal is allergic to it i've never seen or heard of a side effect, other than the side effects any antibiotic causes ..... i believe baytril is also an antibiotic with minimal effect on the gut .... , a high dose of baytril for a dog is 20mg/kg, ld50 is probably around 5000mg/kg, you'd need to overdose them by 25x to have a 50% of killing him ... i used a dog because i'd have to look it up for reptiles, but the effective dose to ld50 is the same across the board, it's huge..... ceftazidime , it's never been questioned , i think it's pretty safe also.... those two drugs cover just about any bacterial infection these guys are known to get.... the only antibiotics i can think of i've ever been prescribed for turtles or tortoises , have been enrofloxacin, ceftazidime, and amikacin , it's worked for me .......
diagnostics? they have there place .........a good vet is a good guesser, a good doctor is a good guesser..... good guesses come from experience.....
you cut yourself, it gets infected , you go to the hospital, they're not going to do cultures, or run pcr's, they're gonna give you a broad spectrum antibiotic for what the infection most likely is , send you home telling you if it doesn't improve or gets worse come back.......
you bring a box turtle to a vet , obvious nasal discharge, swollen eyes ..... could be ranavirus, could be herpes , or one of the other incurable viruses that they are known to carry, could be a common bacterial infection,. what makes sense to do ? now if it's a 5-10k tortoise and you have 5 more at home , what makes sense changes......
as far as the incurable diseases, if you have a large valuable collection , those you might want tested for some of that stuff whether they're sick or not....
like dogs , i bred dogs most of my life , i'd x-ray hips and elbows, and echo the heart, if i wasn't breeding them i would do none of that , unless there was a problem........ i know of folks that bred dogs that didn't want to know , or knew and rationalized it was ok...... kinda like where it seems tortoises are when it comes to disease, you probably got the same 3 groups......
baytril is one of the safer antibiotics used , and probably the most studied one used in reptiles , along with the most used...... unless the animal is allergic to it i've never seen or heard of a side effect, other than the side effects any antibiotic causes ..... i believe baytril is also an antibiotic with minimal effect on the gut .... , a high dose of baytril for a dog is 20mg/kg, ld50 is probably around 5000mg/kg, you'd need to overdose them by 25x to have a 50% of killing him ... i used a dog because i'd have to look it up for reptiles, but the effective dose to ld50 is the same across the board, it's huge..... ceftazidime , it's never been questioned , i think it's pretty safe also.... those two drugs cover just about any bacterial infection these guys are known to get.... the only antibiotics i can think of i've ever been prescribed for turtles or tortoises , have been enrofloxacin, ceftazidime, and amikacin , it's worked for me .......
diagnostics? they have there place .........a good vet is a good guesser, a good doctor is a good guesser..... good guesses come from experience.....
you cut yourself, it gets infected , you go to the hospital, they're not going to do cultures, or run pcr's, they're gonna give you a broad spectrum antibiotic for what the infection most likely is , send you home telling you if it doesn't improve or gets worse come back.......
you bring a box turtle to a vet , obvious nasal discharge, swollen eyes ..... could be ranavirus, could be herpes , or one of the other incurable viruses that they are known to carry, could be a common bacterial infection,. what makes sense to do ? now if it's a 5-10k tortoise and you have 5 more at home , what makes sense changes......
as far as the incurable diseases, if you have a large valuable collection , those you might want tested for some of that stuff whether they're sick or not....
like dogs , i bred dogs most of my life , i'd x-ray hips and elbows, and echo the heart, if i wasn't breeding them i would do none of that , unless there was a problem........ i know of folks that bred dogs that didn't want to know , or knew and rationalized it was ok...... kinda like where it seems tortoises are when it comes to disease, you probably got the same 3 groups......
