Coconut Oil

[glitch4200]

You certainly did a great job! Testing on our own pets requires a lot of courage thou

Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. I would never put anything ever on any animal with knowing exactly what is in its ingredients and that it is completely all natural. Even then I'll be hesitant cuz not all natural products are good for animals either.. Which I'm sure some people are hesitant reading this.

But I can tell you that I have yet to find or observe a negative effect from application... Except maybe blocking needed uvb when applied to the skin itself not the shell.

 

[phebe121]

Well since ive been doing coconut oil in my torts there shell has smoothed out and they look nice

 

[glitch4200]

Well since ive been doing coconut oil in my torts there shell has smoothed out and they look nice

But most importantly the applications serve a higher purpose.
To combat the unnatural drying effects of the lamps. 1 application is not enough to last one week. I've got it down to 3 applications a week for all week protection. I'll do it for the rest of his life until someone can prove to me undoubtedly it does not do what I am outlining or has a potential for long term harm to our tortoises.

 

[glitch4200]

So 1 month later.. I have applied coconut oil 9 times since I started this one month ago. 1 time the first week, 2 times 2nd week, 3 times each week after that. I have noticed his keratin has taken a liking to the oil.. before it lasted almost 4 days like first 2 weeks of application .. now its absorbs in like less then 2 days ... if that.. exp the last couple applications.

This was taken today. I'll show you a pic tomorrow morning to show how quick it is absorbed. But honestly I am really happy cuz he seems so happy now since I started to apply this oil on him and bathing him 3x-4x a week.

( biased & Observstional) He seems to sun bathes longer now. Staying under the light the entire day now! I never saw this behavior before . He would always go back and forth. now he just sits, smiles and with full limb extension .. and then like clockwork goes to the next fav spot. and sleeps and then off to his next favorite spot at a comfy new comfy temp. His skin is so colorful now.. and vibrant. He sometimes reaches 100 degrees and will sleep there with his head resting on his pirch sleeping peacefully the majority of the day... again another behavior I haven't seen before the oil application. I have not had any extreme variation in temperatures when I apply the coconut oil vs time allowed after it starts to absorb. I never move my lights and the highest temp he will reach is 100 degrees at any point. I take Temps 4 times a day atleast with an IR temp gun: shell, limbs, environment, the siding I put in there, substrate, lamps, pretty much everything I can point that thing at haha. Still no crazy difference after a month of temp readings .

 

[glitch4200]

My hypothesis is that this mineral oil is acting as a soft water/moisture barrier in counteracting "unfiltered" IR-A produced by lamps.

Although, it may not "solve" this problem. I am becoming very aware that this a very necessary step in battling the said problem. I see, along with others, no harm coming from this short term. Obviously, I can't speak long term .. if you use these powerful lamps how could you not want to protect your tortoise after seeing the research showing that the lamps you use are a necessary evil and are harmful to our tortoises but necessary to keep them healthy , thriving animals. So many keepers keep these tortoises inside for whatever reason and even though we must stress correct and complete husbandry. We must address these evil lamps lol
until someone makes a lamp that can produce "filtered" IR-A. We have a huge problem in indoor kept tortoises living under these lamps and the dehydrating effect these little guys live with day in and out.

 

[glitch4200]

this is this mornings picture. I had applied the oil about mid day yesterday and took this picture right when he got up at 8:50am. I don't even wipe it off anymore it just soaks up on its own lol but a lot seems to have absorbed or evaporated in a short period of time. You can see yesterday's pic above

 

[AmRoKo]

He wakes up and is like "I'm ready for my beauty shots! *strikes dramatic pose*".

 

[Alaskamike]

The bio- chemistry of keratin and the relationship between internal bone growth and the caprice health is one of the most intriguing and leading edge issues in tortoise keeping.

The gross consequences of improper husbandry are readily seen in deformed shells. The more subtle consequences - like MBD-undoubtably are internal and only discovered by necropsy or internal imaging - both unavailable to the average keeper. For this reason - and rightly so - we now make smooth shells our goal; as observed in wild torts.

We can see the ongoing evolution in tortoise care over the last few years. It is now widely believed - for instance - that too much plant protein, vegetable , fruit , and any animal protein was the culprit ( for herbivore) Those on leading edge of care promoted proper and more natural fibrous food.

Lack of sunlight - artificial or natural , low temps, as well as small enclosures with lack of exercise were also implicated. And use of UVB and larger enclosure are now the norm.

Hydration with always available water followed these gains. And now thanks to several members of the Tortoise forum - @Tom most notably , higher ambient humidity , closed chambers for young torts , and soaks are recommended.

These advances are proven in the positive visual results obtained as well as healthy growing active tortoises.

I believe you are on to something with EVCO. It is possible the anti- bacterial and anti fungal properties of this natural product can prevent shell rot - a condition that may be more common in an extremely high humidity environment like South Florida where I live. The dessicating effects of heat lamps - UVB bulbs are also problematic.

But I also have concerns with those keeping their environments at 90%+ humidity, wet substrata and constant misting. Certainly this concern could be misplaced , but these conditions do not duplicate natural environments in my opinion. In nature Shells dry out, humidity levels change. Only water turtles are wet most of the time, and even these turtles get out on logs and bask / dry out.

The drying effects of UVB are undoubtably an enemy of shell hydration. To counteract this , excessively damp conditions in enclosed chambers are being created & recommended. This is appearing to work for most baby tortoises.

The balance exists somewhere.

In my opinion no young tortoise should be raised in an open top table under a UVB - EVCO or not

I suspect we will find out that balance is the key; higher humidity , varied temps and drying out time , natural sunlight supplemented with UVB and abundant proper foods will be key. The application of EVCO to caprice and plastron may also preserve hydration and provide a barrier to fungus and bacteria.

I think as we look at the advances and recommendations some caution against excess might be wise. It's common for to think if " some is good - allot must be better ". It's not always so.

Hydration is important - for instance- but raising your young Sulcata in a pond with only a log to dry out on is obviously ridiculous. They did not evolve to thrive in those conditions.

Torts need sunlight - artificial or real. But 12 hours a day of artificial UVB can't be all good either.

I know I am rambling here - most know all this well. My application of principles here with EVCO is an admonition to balance.

Recommending EVCO as a substitute for higher humidity , regular soakings, and enclosed chambers for hatchlings would be an error I believe.

Using EVCO as a part of overall good care may very well prove valuable. This is not a criticism of the experiment. I do however cringe at keeping the shell soaked in EVCO weekly. As I observe after one application, Water still beads off the caprice two weeks after application.

Do shells need to dry out occasionally ? Do they need unobstructed air to harden properly and maintain cell health ?

I do not know. I do think your well documented info on IR-A filtration through atmospheric water vapor is important. And in this area we often error in too long exposure of torts indoors to these overhead heat and UV sources. Even an hour or two a day of natural sunlight seems sufficient to provide the D3 needed for calcium absorption. Do we need 12 hours of artificial sunlight in chambers to equal this?

There seems to be many recommendations against using alternative heat sources to overhead lights. Cautions about burning shells the most mentioned. However , I have found good success in using a heating pad ( made for humans and waterproof ) under the substrata to keep an enclosed chamber at 85- 88f for babies. I found the cheap under tank reptile pads and " heat rocks" to be poorly made junk.

Good job in working with this relatively new idea. Certainly EVCO may prove to be an added health issue for out charges.

I will continue to watch this thread for others experience and input
Mike











Sent from my iPhone

 

[Yvonne G]

oh my lord in heaven!!! You typed all of that on your phone?????? I'm very impressed.

It was an inciteful and well thought out premise. Thank you for that.

 

[Alaskamike]

Hahaha. Well , must admit , I used a laptop , copied and pasted from an email I sent to myself. Odd I know
But I'm an odd one.
Thanks

 

[puffy137]

Hahaha. Well , must admit , I used a laptop , copied and pasted from an email I sent to myself. Odd I know
But I'm an odd one.
Thanks

Clever Clogs

 

[Yvonne G]

Shaun: If you'd like me to remove the OT and sort of OT posts from your thread, let me know and I'll move them to another thread for discussion on the oil subject.

 

[Alaskamike]

I am not one of the most experience keeper - by far. But I do have a biology / science background. There is a big difference between coconut oil and mineral / petroleum based oil.

In my opinion , petroleum based products should not be used on torts or human skin. There is science behind this - but suffice to say here , the EVCO recommended by the OP has few down sides that we know of so far.

 

[puffy137]

I have some mineral oil here, but I too am very tempted to get some coconut oil. Indian ladies here swear by the stuff for their lovely hair. I will give them a nice warm bath first, then a massage & a buff up.

 

[glitch4200]

Shaun: If you'd like me to remove the OT and sort of OT posts from your thread, let me know and I'll move them to another thread for discussion on the oil subject.

Yes please I would love to keep this as relevant as possible to my original post any side concerns should be discussed seperstely in another thread. Thank you so much. I highly appreciate it .

 

[keepergale]

B

 

[glitch4200]

The bio- chemistry of keratin and the relationship between internal bone growth and the caprice health is one of the most intriguing and leading edge issues in tortoise keeping.

The gross consequences of improper husbandry are readily seen in deformed shells. The more subtle consequences - like MBD-undoubtably are internal and only discovered by necropsy or internal imaging - both unavailable to the average keeper. For this reason - and rightly so - we now make smooth shells our goal; as observed in wild torts.

We can see the ongoing evolution in tortoise care over the last few years. It is now widely believed - for instance - that too much plant protein, vegetable , fruit , and any animal protein was the culprit ( for herbivore) Those on leading edge of care promoted proper and more natural fibrous food.

Lack of sunlight - artificial or natural , low temps, as well as small enclosures with lack of exercise were also implicated. And use of UVB and larger enclosure are now the norm.

Hydration with always available water followed these gains. And now thanks to several members of the Tortoise forum - @Tom most notably , higher ambient humidity , closed chambers for young torts , and soaks are recommended.

These advances are proven in the positive visual results obtained as well as healthy growing active tortoises.

I believe you are on to something with EVCO. It is possible the anti- bacterial and anti fungal properties of this natural product can prevent shell rot - a condition that may be more common in an extremely high humidity environment like South Florida where I live. The dessicating effects of heat lamps - UVB bulbs are also problematic.

But I also have concerns with those keeping their environments at 90%+ humidity, wet substrata and constant misting. Certainly this concern could be misplaced , but these conditions do not duplicate natural environments in my opinion. In nature Shells dry out, humidity levels change. Only water turtles are wet most of the time, and even these turtles get out on logs and bask / dry out.

The drying effects of UVB are undoubtably an enemy of shell hydration. To counteract this , excessively damp conditions in enclosed chambers are being created & recommended. This is appearing to work for most baby tortoises.

The balance exists somewhere.

In my opinion no young tortoise should be raised in an open top table under a UVB - EVCO or not

I suspect we will find out that balance is the key; higher humidity , varied temps and drying out time , natural sunlight supplemented with UVB and abundant proper foods will be key. The application of EVCO to caprice and plastron may also preserve hydration and provide a barrier to fungus and bacteria.

I think as we look at the advances and recommendations some caution against excess might be wise. It's common for to think if " some is good - allot must be better ". It's not always so.

Hydration is important - for instance- but raising your young Sulcata in a pond with only a log to dry out on is obviously ridiculous. They did not evolve to thrive in those conditions.

Torts need sunlight - artificial or real. But 12 hours a day of artificial UVB can't be all good either.

I know I am rambling here - most know all this well. My application of principles here with EVCO is an admonition to balance.

Recommending EVCO as a substitute for higher humidity , regular soakings, and enclosed chambers for hatchlings would be an error I believe.

Using EVCO as a part of overall good care may very well prove valuable. This is not a criticism of the experiment. I do however cringe at keeping the shell soaked in EVCO weekly. As I observe after one application, Water still beads off the caprice two weeks after application.

Do shells need to dry out occasionally ? Do they need unobstructed air to harden properly and maintain cell health ?

I do not know. I do think your well documented info on IR-A filtration through atmospheric water vapor is important. And in this area we often error in too long exposure of torts indoors to these overhead heat and UV sources.

Is this the beginning of the acceptance of extra virgin coconut oil as a healthy addition to the basic husbandry of all indoor kept adult tortoises under these unfiltered producing IR-A lamps?

You stress baby tortoise care separate from evco and open table top habitats due to Toms and others success on the proper "wet" methods of raising them in higher humidity closed chamber environments.

So at what point do you guys recommend to initiate application as a baby tortoise begins to pass adolescence into adulthood if kept under lamps all its life. Not the ideal but since hydration is so important early on what stops that importance as it grows into full adulthood and to become an old tortoise?

Balance is key. If you guys saw my tattoos you would know how much balance means to me in this life... Oh and the tortoise tattoo going across my chest.

My last application of evco was 2.5 days ago and I don't see any oil present on the shell or skin this morning and it looks "dry". Is this considered the dry out period? At this rate 2 applications would last all week and allow for about 2 "drying out" days. I was applying 3 times a week cuz of how quickly it's been absorbing into him but that isn't allows "drying out" time as you mentioned.

My recommendation to using coconut oil is only in combination with at least 3x-4x soaks a week and in combination with any enclosure that allows for proper ambient humidity. This is not a magic oil. It does not replace the need for ambient humidity and regular soaking. And of course if yoy are using any lamp that produces IR-A. (98% of them)

I took a pic before I went to class this morning.. He hates morning pics... No oil present.

 

[glitch4200]

@Yvonne G

You moved your post to the other thread but I read that you are convinced by this? That makes me most excited to be able to sway some very prominent members of this amazing community to a new idea.

 

[Yvonne G]

Not quite convinced yet. I'm giving it a lot of thought, and I have bought some to try on problem shells.

 

[Alaskamike]

He's looking very good.

When I say oil is still present in mine 2 weeks after application , I don't mean it is visible. I mean that when giving soaks water still beads up on caprice in a way it did not do without any application. This beading says to me the oil is still present on shell.

As far as when in growth high humidity and soaks are reduced / eliminated , others would have to answer that.
I don't consider myself one of the " guys" you refer to as my assumption is you mean the " old timers" and experts in tortoise care.
It takes time for acceptance of any new addition to care - no matter how well substantiated.

I believe the prevailing attitude is, the younger and smaller the tort , the more danger of dehydration. If this is correct , the larger faster growing species would reduce their need quicker with age.

For mine - water will always be available both for soaking and drinking.