I have noticed that my young tortoises are eating some of the fibers or at least trying. On a couple of occasions I have seen the fiber in their mouths so I grab it and it seems like they swallowed a good portion of it. If they eat the fibers will it cause impaction or bind them up? I am worried, I thought that topsoil and coconut coir were or to use?
Tortoises eating coconut coir fibers???
- Thread starter CDTNoob
- Start date
They don't usually do this unless they are sick, or if their diet is lacking fiber. Yes, it can cause impaction. What are you feeding them? Is it mostly grocery store greens? If yes, that might be your problem.
Soil should never be used as tortoise substrate. Coco coir is safe, but it needs to be thoroughly hand packed to keep the mess down.
I am using organic topsoil mixed with the coconut coir in a 50/50 ratio, not just dirt from outside if that makes a difference.
I am feeding them baby spring salad mix minus the spinach I pick it out, hibiscus flowers and leaves, grape leaves, prickly pear cactus pads, kale, repashy green grazer, mazuri small tortoise food the LS variety. I am also sprinkling repashy calcium plus HyD every few days.
I am feeding them baby spring salad mix minus the spinach I pick it out, hibiscus flowers and leaves, grape leaves, prickly pear cactus pads, kale, repashy green grazer, mazuri small tortoise food the LS variety. I am also sprinkling repashy calcium plus HyD every few days.
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I'm just curious....
Are you using any sort of colored heat bulb?
I ask because those colored light can make non edible things look like food.
It's been a long standing issue in the hobby
Are you using any sort of colored heat bulb?
I ask because those colored light can make non edible things look like food.
It's been a long standing issue in the hobby
Nope
It does matter. Organic potting soil could be something toxic. Dirt from outside would likely be fine as long as the sand content was low.
Your diet sounds pretty good. I'd move away from the low fiber baby greens and substitute endive and escarole instead. Collards, arugula and cilantro make for good variety along with all the other good stuff you are already offering.
I'd never heard of the Repashy Had, so I looked it up. It sounds good on paper, but maybe that is too much stuff going on and its causing an imbalance of some sort? I'd quit that for a while and try just a plain calcium supplement once or twice a week for a while and see if the substrate eating stops.
I've raised lots of DTs on coco coir and never had them eat it. Dozens over the years. I'm looking for what you are doing differently:
1. I never use soil.
2. I rarely use spring mix.
3. I've never used Repashy HyD.
What type of heat lamp are you using?
What type of UV bulb?
What are your four temperatures? Basking, cool side, warm side, and overnight low?
Are you soaking daily?
I am using a 75w zoo med repti basking spot lamp
I am using a repti sun 10.0 uvb bulb.
Basking temp: 100-105
warm side: 80-95 dependant on proximity to basking lamp
coolside: 75-80
overnight no lower than 70
I am soaking daily and they have access to fresh water always.
What type of UV bulb? Tube or cfl?
Spot bulbs will cause pyramiding. Best to switch to a flood bulb and get the basking temp just a few degrees lower. You will have to have someone out of state order bulbs for you and ship them in. Can't buy them in CA anymore and they won't even ship them to you now.
It is the bent tube but not the coil type. If I can’t get the flood bulbs anymore is there another option? I could switch to a smaller wattage to lower temps or raise the 75w one I am currently using.
side note: it seems that everything can cause pyramiding in tortoises, is that just me or are there studies to show what exactly causes it?
Any of the cfl bulbs can burn their eyes and should not be used. The bent tube ones are the same as the coil ones in this regard. This could be your problem. Those burn their eyes and can distort their vision. I would stop using it immediately. If you can't get them outside occasionally for access to real sunshine, then get a HO UV tube from Arcadia or ZooMed.
There are many other basking lamp options, but none of them produce satisfactory results. You need an incandescent flood bulb. You can use a round bulb in a ceramic based fixture with an aluminum hood, but it still needs to be an incandescent bulb. The criminal lunatics that run our state banned them. I have a friend out of state order them and ship them to me.
I don't know what you've been reading about pyramiding, but it sounds like all the old wrong stuff. It is not caused by food, too little calcium, too much calcium, too much UV, not enough UV, protein, or any of several other things that it was blamed on previously. It is caused by overly dry desiccating conditions which cause the new growth at the scute margins to dry out too quickly. Pyramiding is caused by growth in overly dry conditions. Anything that does that like low humidity, MVBs or spot bulbs, overly dry conditions with dry substrate, will cause it. There aren't any studies for this. Who would fund that and why? I and several other members here have been working on this problem and doing experiments for the last 10 years. You can do a forum search and find 1000s of pages of reading material on it. @Markw84 explains it the best.
So there really are no better options to me for the basking light because I can get the best option shipped to me and all others are inferior, correct?
I will get a tube type uvb bulb and fixture ASAP.
I can’t believe that there is soooo much old outdated information about pyramiding out there. That really makes me wonder what other things I am doing totally wrong.
TeamZissou
Well-Known Member
I would avoid all products from Repashy for tortoises. They have some of the highest amounts of supplemental pre-formed vitamin A, which can easily result in vitamin A overdose in tortoises. This leads to severe skin and sometimes eye problems. Repashy HyD supplement has a vitamin A content of 400,000 IU/lb, which is very high indeed. Here's a thread where a baby leopard tortoise was fed a couple of Repashy products, showing the devastating effect of vitamin A overdose.
*Help my tortoise Sheldon
Hello everyone, I have been concerned with my 1 year old leopard tortoise for a week now but waited a little bit to see if he would get better but he has not. I just made an appointment to take him to the vet tomorrow and I am hoping they can figure out what is going on. I have noticed his skin...
tortoiseforum.org
A much better source of vitamin A is from beta carotene, which cannot cause overdose since it is a vitamin A precursor. The best product on the market for tortoises is Rep-Cal Herptivite, which does not contain any pre-formed vitamin A and only uses beta carotene.
Don’t I want D3 in the supplement because they are indoors right now?I would avoid all products from Repashy for tortoises. They have some of the highest amounts of supplemental pre-formed vitamin A, which can easily result in vitamin A overdose in tortoises. This leads to severe skin and sometimes eye problems. Repashy HyD supplement has a vitamin A content of 400,000 IU/lb, which is very high indeed. Here's a thread where a baby leopard tortoise was fed a couple of Repashy products, showing the devastating effect of vitamin A overdose.
*Help my tortoise Sheldon
Hello everyone, I have been concerned with my 1 year old leopard tortoise for a week now but waited a little bit to see if he would get better but he has not. I just made an appointment to take him to the vet tomorrow and I am hoping they can figure out what is going on. I have noticed his skin...
A much better source of vitamin A is from beta carotene, which cannot cause overdose since it is a vitamin A precursor. The best product on the market for tortoises is Rep-Cal Herptivite, which does not contain any pre-formed vitamin A and only uses beta carotene.
View attachment 334811
TeamZissou
Well-Known Member
The rule of thumb is that the UVB bulb should be half the length of the enclosure. A 2 foot long enclosure is too small except for the youngest of hatchlings. You'll need something on the size of 4 x 2 feet for the first year for a single tortoise, so a 24" UVB tube would be ideal.
You really want me to say it again? Ok. There are no better options for a basking lamp than a regular incandescent flood bulb.
You don't need the UV bulb ASAP. You really don't need it at all in our climate. We have year round warm sunny days. They don't need UV all day every day all day long. And they can skip it for weeks at a time with no ill effect since they store D3 in their bodies and use it up as needed.
The old wrong outdated info is why I wrote the care sheet. All you have to do is read it to see what else you are doing that could be better:
The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise
I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...
tortoiseforum.org
This might help too:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:
- Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
- Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
- Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
- UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html
Finding out that you've been doing it all wrong can be maddening. Many people get frustrated and defensive. I think that is a pretty natural and normal reaction. I only ask that you think about who is saying this to you and why. Who: A guy whose been doing it since the 70s and running all sorts of experiments to determine the best ways to raise tortoises and keep them healthy and thriving. Why? I want to see healthy tortoises and people enjoying their tortoise keeping activities.
TeamZissou
Well-Known Member
Discontinuing the high vitamin A supplement is the biggest priority right now, with regard to supplementation. Then you can worry about the with/without calcium with D3 debate, which is far less critical. Tortoises need UVB to synthesize D3 to use calcium and form bone. Your tortoise can get enough UV exposure with a couple hours outside. You can supplement with pure calcium or calcium with D3, once or twice a week and they should be fine.
1. They really don't need it.
2. If you are using a good UV bulb, they really don't need it at all.
3. If they are getting access to real sunshine in a safe outdoor enclosure on a regular basis, they don't need it at all.
4. If you use the right supplement, the low levels of D3 will do no harm. I prefer RepCal with D3. Its just calcium with D3. It doesn't have all that other stuff. Just a tiny pinch once or twice a week. When warmer weather rolls back around, and when they get larger and spend more time outside, you can get a calcium supplement with no D3.
I want to do it right, I don’t think I’m doing it all wrong but I’m trying to make sure it is the best it can be for my tortsYou really want me to say it again? Ok. There are no better options for a basking lamp than a regular incandescent flood bulb.
You don't need the UV bulb ASAP. You really don't need it at all in our climate. We have year round warm sunny days. They don't need UV all day every day all day long. And they can skip it for weeks at a time with no ill effect since they store D3 in their bodies and use it up as needed.
The old wrong outdated info is why I wrote the care sheet. All you have to do is read it to see what else you are doing that could be better:
The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise
I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...
This might help too:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:
- Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
- Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
- Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
- UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html
Finding out that you've been doing it all wrong can be maddening. Many people get frustrated and defensive. I think that is a pretty natural and normal reaction. I only ask that you think about who is saying this to you and why. Who: A guy whose been doing it since the 70s and running all sorts of experiments to determine the best ways to raise tortoises and keep them healthy and thriving. Why? I want to see healthy tortoises and people enjoying their tortoise keeping activities.
I agree with Team Zissou. Minimum cage size should be 48" for tiny babies, and my preference is to only cover about half the ceiling with a UV tube. The HO tubes come as 22" bulbs and I like these for a 48" enclosure.
Having said that, I don't use UV tubes in most of my enclosures for babies that will see some sunshine once or twice a week, or more, as they all should.
Having said that, I don't use UV tubes in most of my enclosures for babies that will see some sunshine once or twice a week, or more, as they all should.
