Yellowfoot xray

[mike taylor]

I know alligators and crocodiles eat rocks . Supposably helps break down their food. You think tortoises maybe doing the same ?

 

[Yvonne G]

Let's send and alert to @Will . When this happened to my YF he gave me a big scientific answer that I had a hard time following. Maybe he can dumb it down for us.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The explanation is that these tortoises tend to not eat grass so much, but their intestines are still in a tortoise shell, so they make up the difference by eating seedy plant matter. It gives their intestines a substrate to move a bolus of food back and forth. They actually allow (have evolved to exploit) the bacteria in the large intestine to further break down large molecules and then they ( with muscle that wrap around the intestine) push that bolus of food back up to the small intestine (towards the mouth end of the whole gastrointestinal pipe) for greater absorption of nutrients. Soft foods are too squishy and it won't work. So they will eat small pebbles to replace that substrate.

Madkins007 has the tortoise library and somewhere in that online source are the technical articles that narrate these things from wild tortoises being observed in the wild and in semi captive conditions. Otherwise I agree with @Tom on the appearance of the x-ray, it looks strange.

 

[Meganolvt]

Well, my vet thinks it is bladder stones. I know this is common in torts and I assume he came to me with them. He does have severe MBD, also came like this. I know tortoise bladders are much more caudle than where the stones are (closer to the tail), however there are multiple pictures of torts with huge stones that are really high up, so I suppose it's possible. Since he is eating, pooping, and acting no different then when I adopted him four months ago, we're assuming itt probably isnt in his stomach, duodenum, etc. I know there is no way to tell without a CT or maybe an ultrasound, neither of which we have.
So, since he is doing great, we're going to wait it out and see what happens. We see torts and turtles at my clinic but it is always easy stuff like shell rot, etc. My vet has never actually done a tortoise surgery, and neither have I. We decided that if he shows signs of a problem, we'll go ahead and try surgery. We're doing our homework so we will be ready.
I am an excellent, very experienced licensed veterinary technician, and she is an awesome doctor, so I have confidence we can do it when the time comes. It sucks to have my guy be the guinea pig, but we both need the experience, so i'm ok with it.
The MBD has caused a misshapen shell, but I have been doing everything right (I think), and it has actually smoothed out a tiny bit since I adopted him. I'm going to keep doing what i'm doing, avoid spinach and other things high in oxolates, and keep a close eye on him. I do plan to re-xray him in a few weeks, so I'll post it then!

 

[Meganolvt]

Looks like the pebbles are in the stomach or proximal duodenum but without contrast or CT can not be sure. As far as bone density goes, you can not tell from these images since the radiograph was set for whole body and not limbs. The limbs are burned out and can not be visualized well. Very nice Digital radiograph. That is why there is very good detail.

Thanks! I take my radiographs very seriously.

 

[Meganolvt]

@deadheadvet if you disagree and think those are GI rocks, I would very much appreciate your input. I know that what I really need to do is save my pennies and get a CT or something done at a specialty hospital. Do you think ultrasound would work? That is more within the realm of possibility right now.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm not a vet, but I totally disagree. Bladder stones have rough edges and are basically round. The stones or little rocks inside your tortoise are all different, pointy shapes, like some sort of flower bed top dressing.

 

[Meganolvt]

@Yvonne G, to be honest, 50% of me disagrees too. I have seen lots of little bladder stones like this in dogs, but all I can find in vet books as well as online are tortoises with one huge round stone. To me, it looks like a pile of rocks. I just can't get around the fact that he has had no access to rocks in at least four months. It just doesn't make sense since he poops regularly, eats all the time, etc. I could go either way. Hopefully an xray in a week or so will answer some of these questions. The good news is that apparently they can live with either and not necessarily have a problem, so hopefully Roland will be one of the lucky ones.

 

[Tom]

I know alligators and crocodiles eat rocks . Supposably helps break down their food. You think tortoises maybe doing the same ?

Ha! Maybe this is why healthy tortoises feel so heavy! They are full of rocks.

 

[GotTort]

I'm not a vet but am a human doctor. The stones (or whatever they are) are definitely in the gastrointestinal system and not the bladder. The dark black around and below the stones is air (gas in the bowels). Be interested in what @deadheadvet has to say.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

The distinctness of the stomach (or other organ) reminds me of this image that was going around of the tortoise that swallowed the pendant: http://www.tbo.com/ap/offbeat2/x-ray-shows-sick-fla-tortoise-swallowed-turtle-pendant-20141028/ What is the other high contrast material in the stomach of the tortoise that swallowed the turtle pendant?

 

[SteveW]

The explanation is that these tortoises tend to not eat grass so much, but their intestines are still in a tortoise shell, so they make up the difference by eating seedy plant matter. It gives their intestines a substrate to move a bolus of food back and forth. They actually allow (have evolved to exploit) the bacteria in the large intestine to further break down large molecules and then they ( with muscle that wrap around the intestine) push that bolus of food back up to the small intestine (towards the mouth end of the whole gastrointestinal pipe) for greater absorption of nutrients. Soft foods are too squishy and it won't work. So they will eat small pebbles to replace that substrate.

Madkins007 has the tortoise library and somewhere in that online source are the technical articles that narrate these things from wild tortoises being observed in the wild and in semi captive conditions. Otherwise I agree with @Tom on the appearance of the x-ray, it looks strange.

Bolus, eh? Sounds like a bunch of crap to me.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

The distinctness of the stomach (or other organ) reminds me of this image that was going around of the tortoise that swallowed the pendant: http://www.tbo.com/ap/offbeat2/x-ray-shows-sick-fla-tortoise-swallowed-turtle-pendant-20141028/ What is the other high contrast material in the stomach of the tortoise that swallowed the turtle pendant?

 

[mike taylor]

Ha! Maybe this is why healthy tortoises feel so heavy! They are full of rocks.

Are you poking fun at me man ! You lucky I don't have at&t to reach out and touch you ! Ha-ha

 

[deadheadvet]

Those are rocks and are either in the duodenum or stomach. Definitely not in the bladder.

 

[Meganolvt]

Well, here is another xray, taken today, about 1 1/2 weeks later. It actually looks bigger but hasn't moved. I think now that this probably does have to be bladder stones. He's been eating and pooping, it would have had to move with a week and a half of eating if it was in the intestines I think. He is acting the same as always, but I suppose he came to me with them four months ago, so I dont really know what was "normal" for him prior to that. The good news is he seems fine, at least for now.

 

[Yvonne G]

All the X-rays I've seen show a single, round stone like this:

I suppose it's possible to be in the bladder, as this picture shows the bladder goes all the way across the tortoise, side to side:

But I've seen a lot of bladder stones, and none of them look like the little pebbles in your X-ray. Also, as you can see in the picture above, the bladder is one big 'container' going from one side of this tortoise to the other, while your pebbles are contained in some sort of little pocket, which is obviously not the bladder.

The next picture in the series has the bladder out of the body cavity, and shows the large intestine directly under it on the left side, exactly where your little stones are. If you'd like to see the pictures, they're here:

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f10/tortoise-autopsy-115627/

 

[Meganolvt]

I don't know @Yvonne G, you may be right. Neither makes sense really. He's had no access to pebbles of any kind, he's been indoors since the end of October. But you never see little bladder stones, only one giant one. I just wish I would have xrayed him right when I got him. It would be nice to know if he came like this or if he ate / developed something since i've had him. I'm still wondering if an ultrasound would help. I don't know if ultrasound would even work on a tortoise.

 

[MPRC]

He's had no access to pebbles of any kind, he's been indoors since the end of October.

My redfoot just pooped out a big chunk of bark, he hasn't been near bark (or even outside unsupervised) since September.

I am really intrigued to see how this goes.

 

[MPRC]

Can we get a Roland update? Any new xrays? Any rocks? Any more adorable dopey faced Roland pictures?