Worried about inactive Russian.

[Shakudo]

Hi everybody,

My Russian tortoise has been displaying some behavior and I am curious/a bit worried.
I initially posted this on the thread of "why does my Russian stay buried" but nobody responded and she is displaying the same behavior again, so I wanted to bring it up again, here because I really want some good advice/information.

Here is the situation:

We were having very hot days here in the Netherlands, and it was a steady 27 degrees or more in my city apartment. Now, the last week is has cooled down a lot to 23/24 degrees Celsius inside, outside it is about 20 degrees.

I think the continuity of high temperatures probably resulted in aestivation of my Russian tortoise. She started becoming less active when the hot days were at their hight and she buried herself for a few days.
I didn't know what to do so after a few days of not seeing her and her not eating I decide to take action.

After reading the thread info about high temps and too dark I decide to get her out of the enclosure.
My light cycle was 12 hours, and I prolonged it to 13 hours a day.
I soaked her for 15 minutes , and then put her back in the enclosure, she ate very good.

Then she went back to sleep. Then after a few days of inactivity I stuck my head in the cage (yes I did) and called her , she was a looking at me sleepy , but after a while she came out of her own. And ate again.
I was very happy. Then she went back to sleep again... and hasn't been active, this is the second day.

She just hides all day and sleeps. I am starting to get worried. I expected her to become more active as the temperature dropped to normal but she isn't. I am especially worried she wants to hibernate, though she has never done before according to the previous owner. I am not planning to hibernate her, I haven't the experience nor option in my city apartment to do so. I hope she becomes active again, I really miss seeing her.

Here is the situation

Specs:

• 
  
  
  • Temperature:

The temperature under the spot is about 35 degrees Celsius, the middle part of the enclosure was about 29 degrees Celsius on the hot days, now in cooler days 25 degrees.
The and the cooler part of the enclosure I estimate about 23/25 degrees.

• 
  
  
  • Water:

Available

• 
  
  
  • Hide:

cork bark and the option to dig down in the substrate. I keep the hide moderately humid.

• 
  
  
  • Substrate:

Coco coir/fiber

• 
  
  
  • Light:

MVB ( Solar Raptor 100 Watts)
on 10:00 AM
off 10 PM
( now upgraded to 9:00 AM on / 10:00 PM off , 13 hour cycle)

I have tried to keep the heat out , but the plating ( I don't know what it's called) on the outside of my apartment absorbs heat and I can't get the heat much down.

My apartment is very well lit by big windows but I read in the post it might have something to do with it being too warm and too dark, so I prolonged the light cycle.
I don't want to make it that much more preferably, due to the fact it's a 100 watt lamp and not an energy saving bulb and in my situation I have to be financially aware of all energy consuming things in my house.

I'd appreciate advice / suggestions.

Joey

 

[Shakudo]

 

[wellington]

You need to buy some better temp gauges. Those puck like things you have are worthless. Get a temp gun and a digital temp/humidity gauge. Neither one is that expensive. Hardware stores or places like a Home Depot if you have that will have them. You can also find them online. A bigger enclosure would be preferred too and easier to control temps. After you get better gauges, you might find out the reason for this. Also, how far way from the substrate is your basking light? It looks a little too close in the pic.

 

[Shakudo]

You need to buy some better temp gauges. Those puck like things you have are worthless. Get a temp gun and a digital temp/humidity gauge. Neither one is that expensive. Hardware stores or places like a Home Depot if you have that will have them. You can also find them online. A bigger enclosure would be preferred too and easier to control temps. After you get better gauges, you might find out the reason for this. Also, how far way from the substrate is your basking light? It looks a little too close in the pic.

I don't agree. I purchased them on an expo and the brand is familiar to me. I have years of good experience with those. But I guess that's personal.

As for the enclosure. She is just 12 cm long and I have had her for just about 3 months now. I am not in the opportunity to spent money on a new enclosure. But am planning to save up for a new one. But not just now yet.

The distance is about 25 to 30 cmters
I understood that she must be able to get away from the beam. And my enclosure is certainly large enough for that. However, I could try and find a dome for it to put it on top of the cage on the bars. It wil make for a difference of about 10 to 15 cmters.

However, what will that do? She has been fine for the last three months.

It's logical to assume that something prompted this behavior. If it was my keeping conditions, it would have presented itself earlier ?


I still think she is aestivation but I have no way of knowing for sure.

 

[AmRoKo]

I don't really think I can be much help here but, maybe try putting stuff or setting up areas where she can climb (apparently russian torts really enjoy that) and setting things up like more plants and what not in there to peak her interest more? Maybe she is just bored, but someone more experienced with russian torts will have to chime in here.

 

[wellington]

I don't agree. I purchased them on an expo and the brand is familiar to me. I have years of good experience with those. But I guess that's personal.

As for the enclosure. She is just 12 cm long and I have had her for just about 3 months now. I am not in the opportunity to spent money on a new enclosure. But am planning to save up for a new one. But not just now yet.

The distance is about 25 to 30 cmters
I understood that she must be able to get away from the beam. And my enclosure is certainly large enough for that. However, I could try and find a dome for it to put it on top of the cage on the bars. It wil make for a difference of about 10 to 15 cmters.

However, what will that do? She has been fine for the last three months.

It's logical to assume that something prompted this behavior. If it was my keeping conditions, it would have presented itself earlier ?


I still think she is aestivation but I have no way of knowing for sure.

Have you ever tested them out against a reliable temp gauge, like I had mentioned. Those puck things have to wide a range for error.
Many have used them and when was told how inaccurate they are and went and bought reliable gauges, the sure found out how bad the puck things are. I used too use them too, until I learned better.

 

[WillTort2]

A few suggestions.

I would change substrate to a fine grade coco coir it will hold the moisture better.

I would expand your enclosure, the tortoise needs more roaming room. You could add a wood patio out the front with a ramp to allow access. Or rotate the enclosure 90 degrees and add a 2nd connecting enclosure to double the space or build a larger patio area. or put a second story inside your existing enclosure. But, best of all, build a totally new enclosure with larger area, ramp to a second story and plants with things of interest.

A larger water dish would be better. I like the shallow planter base made from terra cotta type pottery. (8" round and about 1" deep)

 

[Shakudo]

A few suggestions.

I would change substrate to a fine grade coco coir it will hold the moisture better.

I would expand your enclosure, the tortoise needs more roaming room. You could add a wood patio out the front with a ramp to allow access. Or rotate the enclosure 90 degrees and add a 2nd connecting enclosure to double the space or build a larger patio area. or put a second story inside your existing enclosure. But, best of all, build a totally new enclosure with larger area, ramp to a second story and plants with things of interest.

A larger water dish would be better. I like the shallow planter base made from terra cotta type pottery. (8" round and about 1" deep)

Hello and thank you for your suggestions.

What you see is the top layer, beneath it is the finer coir. So don't worry.

As for the enclosure, as I said above. It will have to do for now. She is just 12 cmters yet and the enclosure is 110cmx55cm. I am planning on a new enclosure but I'll have to save up for that. But it will happen sooner or later.

You have some interesting suggestions to think about again thank you. But I'm leaning towards building a new one with a friend who is very handy. Or buy two of them
Zoomed tortoise houses and connect them. Which also appeals to me very much but cost very much here in the Netherlands.

As for the water dish. I soak her once a week but am planning to get some plant saucers. Also excellent idea.

But... It still doesn't explain her behavior. She has been active for three months consecutive, there was nothing going on, until two weeks ago.


UPDATE:

She has been digging and digging and digging till she reached the bottom. She has sealed off the hide and remains there.

I still remain convinced of my earlier theory of aestivation and if she continues to display this behavior I will wake her again and soak her and offer food again.

I am anxious.



Joey

 

[Shakudo]

Have you ever tested them out against a reliable temp gauge, like I had mentioned. Those puck things have to wide a range for error.
Many have used them and when was told how inaccurate they are and went and bought reliable gauges, the sure found out how bad the puck things are. I used too use them too, until I learned better.

I will look into it. Thank you.

 

[Shakudo]

I don't really think I can be much help here but, maybe try putting stuff or setting up areas where she can climb (apparently russian torts really enjoy that) and setting things up like more plants and what not in there to peak her interest more? Maybe she is just bored, but someone more experienced with russian torts will have to chime in here.

Thanks anyway. I appreciate your contribution nevertheless

 

[WillTort2]

Try adding a freezer block(the plastic reusable blocks for keeping drinks or food cool rather than ice) above the cool end of the enclosure to bring the temperature down to 70 F.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

If she is trying to estivate, it is because her environment does not meet her needs. It's that simple. Estivation indoors generally means that the keeper needs to make changes, not that the animal is demonstrating successful adaptive strategies.

 

[Shakudo]

If she is trying to estivate, it is because her environment does not meet her needs. It's that simple. Estivation indoors generally means that the keeper needs to make changes, not that the animal is demonstrating successful adaptive strategies.

I read that aestivation was a form of summer hibernation, to protect itself from high temperatures?

I dug her up today.
She dug herself completely in, sealed of her hide and was buried deep in the coir.

Gave her a soak and some greens. She ate a little.
After which I gave her another small soak and dried her off and put her back. Then I hand fed her a bit more.
Then she went back in her hide.

My temperatures inside have dropped to normal. We had a big weather change here due to a storm that sends cold air. Outside temps have suddenly gone down to 17 degrees Celsius. Indoors it's about 22.

The general temperature is 23/25 degrees Celsius in the enclosure and 30 degrees under the mvb. I measured that with a digital probe.

Well I don't know what else to do.
I hope you understand I am trying my best here. I have changed her diet from lettuce and tomato and cucumber to outdoor greens and grasses and herbs. I gave her a hide, changed the substrate, gave her enrichment in her enclosure, stone , cork bark, hay with dried herbs.

She came from a 100x50x50 aquarium with only sand, 2 plastic plants, a rock and no hide.



I have no other choice then letting her do what she wants to do. I have decided that if she buries herself in again I will let her be.


Joey

 

[johnsonnboswell]

I have no other choice then letting her do what she wants to do. I have decided that if she buries herself in again I will let her be.


Joey[/QUOTE]
You've made some improvements, but not enough. Your tortoise's behavior tells you that. Go to russiantortoise.org and read everything about tortoise care.

You actually have 3 choices: you can rehome your tortoise; you can learn everything you need to know and do what is required; or you can let her die.

I don't believe that it's too late to save this animal. If you feel it's too much for you, there's no shame in admitting it & finding another carer. Just don't think innate tortoise wisdom will compensate for mistaken care.

 

[Shakudo]

I have no other choice then letting her do what she wants to do. I have decided that if she buries herself in again I will let her be.


Joey

You've made some improvements, but not enough. Your tortoise's behavior tells you that. Go to russiantortoise.org and read everything about tortoise care.

You actually have 3 choices: you can rehome your tortoise; you can learn everything you need to know and do what is required; or you can let her die.

I don't believe that it's too late to save this animal. If you feel it's too much for you, there's no shame in admitting it & finding another carer. Just don't think innate tortoise wisdom will compensate for mistaken care.

Hold on.
You seem to misunderstand and after reading it back I get why.
Of course I won't leave her buried, I just meant I am stopping trying to dig her up every time she does.
I am checking on her daily. And nobody is saying anything about not being up to it, if I wasn't I wouldn't go through all the effort, and could have just sold her to my regular pet store who takes in animals from people from time to time, who can't take care of them. But that's not the kind of person I want to be.

Second, my tortoise was fine just two weeks ago, so I think terms of "saving" and "letting her die" are a bit dramatic here.
She hasn't lost weight and besides hiding a lot, she did eat and drink and physically she is fine.
She was roaming around her enclosure and doing normal tortoise things, up to the point we had a heat wave here.

And I totally agree with the latter part, that's why I have read the website, have bought literature, am reading up almost every day.
I also think I can't control her behavior and should stop trying to keep her wandering around when she clearly desires to hide.
I read so much info I can't really find a cause, other than and I quote from russiantortoise.net:

"Temperature: Temperature is critical for a healthy tortoise. The pen should have a cool end with the temps in the low 70's and a basking spot at 90-95°F. Night time temperature drops are needed. Mine do well with temps that drop down into the 60's at night. If they are kept too cool they can't digest their food. Too warm and they stop eating and aestivate (sort of like suspended animation).

Invest in a good thermometer with a probe. You can get one at Radio Shack for 20 bucks. Don't take chances by guessing....you could end up with a cooked tortoise! Don't use heat rocks or under the tank heaters."

My temperatures are fine, and I did check it with a probe.

Nothing I could find there indicates that a tortoise aestivates because there is something specifically wrong with my enclosure, only that if temperatures fluctuate in the high regions this behavior could be prompted.

As for the the size of my enclosure, if you have read the website as well, you have also read that the author gives suggestions for housing adult Russians.
One of the suggestions given is f.e. The pen plax tortoise palace, which is 48 inches long x 30x12 = which is 122 cm x 76x 30, my enclosure is 110 cmters long x 55 cm wide and equally high, and my tortoise isn't even grown yet , it is just about 3 years old and 12 cmters. I have stated before she will get an upgrade when I can. I have devoted myself to her and I am trying.

 

[mikey~t]

Hi there.. Can i say, i know how youre feeling.. Our russian too changed his behaviour. Hed be waiting for us each morning and enjoyed basking.. Now he sleeps a lot, after being encouraged to get up. Personally, i dont think youre doing any harm getting your tortoise up each day, but leaving things as they are wont work either. We bathe our little guy every other day.. When he isnt eating, we food bathe him, for a few days.. Usually this jump starts him into eating again (liquidise his food in a little water and add it to his bath)
Also try putting his enclosure in a different part of the room (or a different room even) and maybe add something that act as tunnels.. Our little boy now doesnt rush off to bed so much, as he can hide in a tunnel instead..

 

[Shakudo]

I let her dig now, she came up once last week and I haven't seen her since.
I hear her sometimes digging away, but I can't stop her from digging herself in again.
Whenever I dig her up she eats and goes back to sleep. I have accepted that I can't stop her from doing that.
I think it's more stressful for her getting disturbed all the time than accepting the fact that if she wants to dig herself in she wants to dig herself in.

I am very depressed about this, because I miss her and worry but I am not going to project human emotions or concepts on my tortoise.
I don't see the need for trying to humanize an animal to understand it within a human frame of mind, I'd rather understand it for what it actually is, in my opinion, an individual which is governed by a totally different set of imperatives then humans are. In my opinion failing to accept that, is not accepting the animal for who and what it is. And I try to work within or with that set of mind. But that's a bit of my own philosophy, everyone has the right to see it his or her own way of course.

I think she is either aestivating of getting ready for brumation.
I can't get a clear idea which one it might be, I did a lot of reading and those are the only real logical explanations I could find. I read almost everyday here and other sources and try to learn as much as I can.

Russians have a strong biological clockwork which governs their behavior in such situations.
I have kept the temperature stabile and prolonged the light cycle. And I am curious to see when she comes up again.
I carefully keep track on how much time she spends under ground.

That's it for the update.


Joey