What Are They Thinking?

[W Shaw]

I need a tortoise psychic. Last night, I went to give Ronan his bath. In his usual tub, freshly washed and filled, at the normal nice warm temperature, with a heat lamp over it. He freaked out. PLEEEEASE don't put me in that water! I don't want a bath! Please don't make me take a bath!" When I set him in it, all he did was frantically beg to be taken out. So I gave in and took him out and put him back in his enclosure -- where he immediately RAN to his water dish, drank, then climbed in and sat in it for 20 minutes.

Today, the temp in the house dropped more than I expected. When I got home from work, the temps in his enclosure were a little low. And where was he? Hunkered down in the farthest, coldest corner of the enclosure, sitting on the six inch square that I can never get direct heat on. A spot he never goes into, because it's the cold spot.

After he had his dinner I put him in his tub -- you know the one he absolutely freaked out about last night? He soaked happily for almost 40 minutes, with me replacing the water every time he pooped.

Sometimes I think he just likes to mess with me.

 

[Yvonne G]

I guess we'll never know!

 

[TerrapinStation]

I can see the new hit show on animal Planet "Adventures of the Tortoise Whisperer"

Travelling the country, scamming us Tort keepers with promises of revealing the complex Psyche of our shelled friends.....

 

[Gillian M]

I need a tortoise psychic. Last night, I went to give Ronan his bath. In his usual tub, freshly washed and filled, at the normal nice warm temperature, with a heat lamp over it. He freaked out. PLEEEEASE don't put me in that water! I don't want a bath! Please don't make me take a bath!" When I set him in it, all he did was frantically beg to be taken out. So I gave in and took him out and put him back in his enclosure -- where he immediately RAN to his water dish, drank, then climbed in and sat in it for 20 minutes.

Today, the temp in the house dropped more than I expected. When I got home from work, the temps in his enclosure were a little low. And where was he? Hunkered down in the farthest, coldest corner of the enclosure, sitting on the six inch square that I can never get direct heat on. A spot he never goes into, because it's the cold spot.

After he had his dinner I put him in his tub -- you know the one he absolutely freaked out about last night? He soaked happily for almost 40 minutes, with me replacing the water every time he pooped.

Sometimes I think he just likes to mess with me.

I know what you mean, but I agree with Yvonne here: I don't believe we could ever know what any animal is thinking of. (For that matter, one cannot always tell what a human being is thinking of unless he/she speaks. However, in this case eyes may say something. But what if he/she is on the phone)?

 

[W Shaw]

I know what you mean, but I agree with Yvonne here: I don't believe we could ever know what any animal is thinking of. (For that matter, one cannot always tell what a human being is thinking of unless he/she speaks. However, in this case eyes may say something. But what if he/she is on the phone)?

That was one benefit of working with chimps who had human language. They could TELL us what what they were thinking. Then again, they could also lie (such as saying that the director said it was okay to have ice cream), tease (such as insisting that everything, regardless of the color was actually black for an entire afternoon), and pretty skillfully manipulate new people, so... even when they can talk, you don't always know.

 

[RayRay]

That was one benefit of working with chimps who had human language. They could TELL us what what they were thinking. Then again, they could also lie (such as saying that the director said it was okay to have ice cream), tease (such as insisting that everything, regardless of the color was actually black for an entire afternoon), and pretty skillfully manipulate new people, so... even when they can talk, you don't always know.

Wait you mean sign language right?

 

[W Shaw]

Wait you mean sign language right?

Yeah -- ASL. Chimps aren't physically capable of producing human speech. They have limited breath control and a shorter vocal tract. The vocalizations they do make are more tied to the limbic system than most of ours. Much harder to control. Kind of like if you accidentally whack your thumb with a hammer -- you're likely to vocalize spontaneously. You have SOME control over it, but not a lot.

 

[RayRay]

Yeah -- ASL. Chimps aren't physically capable of producing human speech. They have limited breath control and a shorter vocal tract. The vocalizations they do make are more tied to the limbic system than most of ours. Much harder to control. Kind of like if you accidentally whack your thumb with a hammer -- you're likely to vocalize spontaneously. You have SOME control over it, but not a lot.

Lol ok I thought so.

I thought it was that or you were working in a jail I worked with someone who had their facebook set as working as an "adult babysitter"

I've never heard someone call an inmate a chimp while I worked there. But I never heard of a chimp talking (besides sign language).

what is your opinion on that really famous chimp and researcher lady? Do you think what she says about the chimp she works is true or false? I've seen a lot of people online say it was her just over thinking her chimp.

 

[W Shaw]

what is your opinion on that really famous chimp and researcher lady? Do you think what she says about the chimp she works is true or false? I've seen a lot of people online say it was her just over thinking her chimp.

I'm not sure which one you mean. I don't know of any who just work with one chimp. I wonder if you're thinking about Penny Patterson, who works with gorillas. There's a lot of publicity about Koko, but she's a gorilla, not a chimp. Koko definitely communicates clearly, but Patterson also over interprets when she deals with the media. There's also Sue Savage, who works mostly with bonobos these days. I think her methods are unethical, but I don't doubt her data. I worked with Washoe (the first nonhuman to learn an existing human language, rather than just artificial symbols) and Loulis (the first nonhuman to learn a human language by cultural transmission from conspecifics, rather than from humans), and three others from the second Gardner project. Then there's Tomasello, of course, but he's an eejit. He raises chimps in deprived conditions, tests them under completely different conditions than human kids get tested, and then claims his data shows that chimps aren't capable of what human kids are. Bad science all around! You can't have completely different rearing conditions, and completely different testing conditions and then claim to be making a comparison based on the species. That's just basic scientific method. Gah. Don't get me started. Wait... I already got started. Okay. This is me shutting up now.

 

[RayRay]

I'm not sure which one you mean. I don't know of any who just work with one chimp. I wonder if you're thinking about Penny Patterson, who works with gorillas. There's a lot of publicity about Koko, but she's a gorilla, not a chimp. Koko definitely communicates clearly, but Patterson also over interprets when she deals with the media. There's also Sue Savage, who works mostly with bonobos these days. I think her methods are unethical, but I don't doubt her data. I worked with Washoe (the first nonhuman to learn an existing human language, rather than just artificial symbols) and Loulis (the first nonhuman to learn a human language by cultural transmission from conspecifics, rather than from humans), and three others from the second Gardner project. Then there's Tomasello, of course, but he's an eejit. He raises chimps in deprived conditions, tests them under completely different conditions than human kids get tested, and then claims his data shows that chimps aren't capable of what human kids are. Bad science all around! You can't have completely different rearing conditions, and completely different testing conditions and then claim to be making a comparison based on the species. That's just basic scientific method. Gah. Don't get me started. Wait... I already got started. Okay. This is me shutting up now.

Koko that's the one I believe I was thinking of.

About the different treatments I have read multiple times just going thru random threads of people online of them complaining about the lack of control subjects and writing down how they interacted with the animals and what genders what their diet and environment is etc etc.

As a nonscientist I thought that was all science 101

 

[Tom]

I've raised a few chimps and orangs. For the first few years there is not all that much difference between them and human kids.

We never did sign language, but they were certainly able to communicate.

 

[W Shaw]

Koko that's the one I believe I was thinking of.

About the different treatments I have read multiple times just going thru random threads of people online of them complaining about the lack of control subjects and writing down how they interacted with the animals and what genders what their diet and environment is etc etc.

As a nonscientist I thought that was all science 101

Yeah, Patterson tends to really overinterpret when she deals with the media -- it brings in the donations. But her behavior shouldn't be seen to entirely negate Koko's accomplishments. Actual data, and what she puts out to the public are two different things. Koko's as proficient with her language as the chimps I worked with, and when I've seen films of her -- subjectively speaking, here -- form, length of utterance, etc. look very comparable. Patterson's wild claims that Koko talks abstractly about death, etc -- I don't buy that. I don't think the data supports it. You have to be very careful not to make claims beyond what the data supports. Working on a project like that, you sort of work on 2 levels. There's the social level where you're dealing with the chimps as colleagues and friends, and research level. So, for example, if Tatu said, "Gimme cookie, please," Socially speaking, I'd assume she wanted a cookie and respond accordingly. But research-wise, I couldn't say she wanted a cookie. I'm not a psychic. I can't know empirically that she wants something. I can only record what she said and in what context, and let the data speak for itself. For example, the time when one team member had to explain to Washoe that the reason she'd been away for a few days was that she'd had a miscarriage & Washoe responded, "Cry Cry Cry... Come hug." The same thing any human colleague would have said. "That's so sad! Come here and let me give you a hug!" Can we say what she was thinking? No. But clearly her response was spontaneous and appropriate to the context. It had nothing to do with food rewards, and the nature of it suggests empathy (Washoe's first baby was born with a heart defect and only lived a few hours, so she had experienced a similar loss).

 

[Tom]

A friend of mine is a primate researcher and was working with Koko for the last few years. He told me that she is quite an impressive ape and knows what she wants.

W Shaw,
Have you ever gotten around orangutans? I find them to be far smarter than either chimps or gorillas. Scary smart. And the strength is absolutely unfathomable.

 

[RayRay]

After thinking about all of what yall have said while I've been working.

I dont think it was koko I just remember them talking about random animals known for being smarter.

I remember them talking about a grey African maccaw I think it was.

its name was Alex and the researcher claimed he asked what color he was. and other neat stuff I can't remember it all.

 

[keepergale]

Maybe you can confirm or deny a Washoe story I always liked. I heard she bit a person finger off and promptly started signing sorry sorry sorry. I liked the story due to it kind of showing her innate chimp behavior and then expressing real or even better yet false remorse.

 

[keepergale]

I met Koko once and was very impressed with her speed in signing. She seemed very deliberate with her signing even though I don't sign and had to have Penny interpret everything for me.

 

[W Shaw]

A friend of mine is a primate researcher and was working with Koko for the last few years. He told me that she is quite an impressive ape and knows what she wants.

W Shaw,
Have you ever gotten around orangutans? I find them to be far smarter than either chimps or gorillas. Scary smart. And the strength is absolutely unfathomable.

Never have but always wanted to. I love that they can sign with their feet!

 

[W Shaw]

After thinking about all of what yall have said while I've been working.

I dont think it was koko I just remember them talking about random animals known for being smarter.

I remember them talking about a grey African maccaw I think it was.

its name was Alex and the researcher claimed he asked what color he was. and other neat stuff I can't remember it all.

Everything you ever heard about Alex was true. He did ask what color he was! He was an amazing guy who died far too young.

 

[W Shaw]

Maybe you can confirm or deny a Washoe story I always liked. I heard she bit a person finger off and promptly started signing sorry sorry sorry. I liked the story due to it kind of showing her innate chimp behavior and then expressing real or even better yet false remorse.

She did not bite anyone's finger off. She was briefly in Oklahoma while the folks responsible for her were looking for a permanent place. The facility there had corrugated fencing (which is one reason it was not going to be her permanent home). An eejit put his fingers into the enclosure and yes, she warned him back by closing her mouth gently on his finger. Although he had been told that you never should pull your hand back suddenly if this happens, he did -- and ended up cutting himself badly on the corrugated metal of the fence. The cut became infected and ultimately he lost a finger to it. I wasn't with the project yet at that time, so I don't know what she signed, although it would have been totally in character for her to apologize if she saw the injury and believed she'd caused it. I saw them all apologize on multiple occasions. One day my sister, who was also on the project, was with Dar. He got annoyed for some reason and poked her with one finger. She said, "What was that for? I thought we were friends!" She then went back to work on some data, but some time later, she heard Dar whimpering. She went in and asked what was wrong and he signed, "Sorry Sorry Sorry." So, even though she wasn't actually harmed, he was crying much later because he'd hurt her feelings. Once he'd apologized and she'd accepted the apology, he was fine about it.

 

[Pearly]

Enjoyed reading the above exchange very much! I envy the experiences you guys have had with those fascinating creatures