Tortoise connections with humans

[AnimalLady]

I say this based on everything I've read and studied over a lifetime of dealing with animals and decades of personal observation.

You may be sad, but your tortoise most certainly isn't.

Do an Internet search for "anthropomorphism".

Ok, but, they have to grow some kind of love with the hand that feeds them. ..? Have you seen Aldabramans pix? In some of them the torts look pretty affectionate.

anthropomorphism, ok fine, but some animals feel and create emotional bonds. I don't know about reptiles because these torts are the first I've owned but I know dogs and rabbits and they definitely have feelings!

 

[AnimalLady]

This is NOT a proven fact, actually. If you take a look at my post above, you'll see that more recent studies indicate that reptiles DO form emotional bonds. We don't know exactly what emotions they feel, because we're not psychics. We do know that they are self-aware (for example the recent studies showing that rattlesnakes recognize their own scent), and that they... well. I already said it above. I'm more familiar with the rattlesnake research than the tortoise research, but they're both reptiles. I'm sure I could dig up some studies on tortoise social behavior, if you want me to. Not all species are strongly social, and solitary species are of course less likely to form long-term social bonds. It doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't self-aware and don't experience emotions. Current research suggests otherwise.

Yea, I personally find it hard to believe they wouldn't form social bonds, but I'm not at all experienced with reptiles. I'll watch and see with mine.

 

[Tom]

Ok, but, they have to grow some kind of love with the hand that feeds them. ..? Have you seen Aldabramans pix? In some of them the torts look pretty affectionate.

anthropomorphism, ok fine, but some animals feel and create emotional bonds. I don't know about reptiles because these torts are the first I've owned but I know dogs and rabbits and they definitely have feelings!

Recognizing the hand that feeds them, or smelling their own scent, or the scent of another tortoise is not the same as having "feelings" in the human sense of the word.

If you left and never returned, and some other human started putting food and clean water in the enclosure, the tortoise would not cry or miss you. They recognize you are not a threat, and that you are associated with food. This is not a "social bond". This does not mean they don't have some feelings. If you zapped your tortoise with a tazer every time it saw you, it would most certainly feel fear when it saw you again. If you fed it a yummy flower every time it saw you, it would feel some excitement or anticipation when it saw you again.

But to say a tortoise "loves" a person, is a stretch that is too far for me.

 

[AnimalLady]

Recognizing the hand that feeds them, or smelling their own scent, or the scent of another tortoise is not the same as having "feelings" in the human sense of the word.

If you left and never returned, and some other human started putting food and clean water in the enclosure, the tortoise would not cry or miss you. They recognize you are not a threat, and that you are associated with food. This is not a "social bond". This does not mean they don't have some feelings. If you zapped your tortoise with a tazer every time it saw you, it would most certainly feel fear when it saw you again. If you fed it a yummy flower every time it saw you, it would feel some excitement or anticipation when it saw you again.

But to say a tortoise "loves" a person, is a stretch that is too far for me.

You don't feel this way about all animals, right? Just reptiles?

 

[Tom]

You don't feel this way about all animals, right? Just reptiles?

Correct. Totally different with social animals like house cats, dogs, cetaceans, primates, rodents, psittacines, corvids, and lots and lots of others.

I could tell you lots of cool stories… Here is an old one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ethel-the-other-woman.12270/

And another one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/found-an-old-photo.105501/

 

[AnimalLady]

Correct. Totally different with social animals like house cats, dogs, cetaceans, primates, rodents, psittacines, corvids, and lots and lots of others.

I could tell you lots of cool stories… Here is an old one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ethel-the-other-woman.12270/

And another one: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/found-an-old-photo.105501/

Those are really cool pix, so just reptiles, i wonder why that is, its quite fascinating.

 

[Tom]

Those are really cool pix, so just reptiles, i wonder why that is, its quite fascinating.

Its not just reptiles. There are lots of other categories too. It boils down to an animal specie's intelligence vs. instinct, and also whether or not they are social in the wild.

It is generally a mistake to assign complex human emotions, like love, to animals. That is all I'm getting at. I'm not saying animals don't have some emotions. That is an absurd concept. Of course they do. I'm saying your tortoise doesn't "love" you in the human sense of the word. Having spent years with the higher primates, I'm not sure that they feel what we call "love" either. Certainly they can feel and express emotions like happy or sad, excitement or anxiety, but love might be a stretch.

 

[AnimalLady]

Its not just reptiles. There are lots of other categories too. It boils down to an animal specie's intelligence vs. instinct, and also whether or not they are social in the wild.

It is generally a mistake to assign complex human emotions, like love, to animals. That is all I'm getting at. I'm not saying animals don't have some emotions. That is an absurd concept. Of course they do. I'm saying your tortoise doesn't "love" you in the human sense of the word. Having spent years with the higher primates, I'm not sure that they feel what we call "love" either. Certainly they can feel and express emotions like happy or sad, excitement or anxiety, but love might be a stretch.

I guess its more for the humans benefit to associate them with human emotions, really, it makes ME feel better *thinking* my tort loves me, even if thats not really the case, so I understand that... I do believe all animals have emotions, like you said up above, if i knocked on a torts shell day in a day out as hard as I could i'm sure he'd be in fear everytime I came around..

but my dog loves me, and i'm sticking with that

 

[Tom]

I guess its more for the humans benefit to associate them with human emotions, really, it makes ME feel better *thinking* my tort loves me, even if thats not really the case, so I understand that... I do believe all animals have emotions, like you said up above, if i knocked on a torts shell day in a day out as hard as I could i'm sure he'd be in fear everytime I came around..

but my dog loves me, and i'm sticking with that

We are on the same page now.

Understanding animal behavior has been my career for a long time. I've seen that I have a different perspective than many people. I'm glad to be able to discuss it on a forum like this.

 

[W Shaw]

@Tom , it seems to me that you're pretty much dismissing all of the research demonstrating social bonding in reptiles. I get that this idea wasn't popular 30 years ago, but these days it seems the preponderance of data supports it. I also have spent many years in ethological research (Mostly with chimps and rattlesnakes). I understand, of course, the danger in making assumptions about what an animal is thinking, but that caution goes in both directions. If a species demonstrates similar behavior under similar circumstances as other species, it's a stretch to say, "Despite the behavior being identical under identical conditions, it's not really the same because I don't believe that species is capable of having that emotion." Also, there's a danger in assuming that emotion is not present because one species doesn't display it in the same way as another species. In one of the behavioral labs I worked in, we had a quote from a Victorian professor on the wall to bring that point home to incoming grad students. The quote, referring to dogs, said, "They can't suffer -- they can't even speak English." I think it's really important to avoid getting our own biases in the way and dismissing the research simply because it doesn't conform to our preconceived ideas about the species. I'm not a tortoise expert, and haven't read any recent studies (though I will now, for sure!), so I can't speak to tortoises in particular, but I can say that research supports social bonding in other reptile species.

 

[AnimalLady]

@Tom , it seems to me that you're pretty much dismissing all of the research demonstrating social bonding in reptiles. I get that this idea wasn't popular 30 years ago, but these days it seems the preponderance of data supports it. I also have spent many years in ethological research (Mostly with chimps and rattlesnakes). I understand, of course, the danger in making assumptions about what an animal is thinking, but that caution goes in both directions. If a species demonstrates similar behavior under similar circumstances as other species, it's a stretch to say, "Despite the behavior being identical under identical conditions, it's not really the same because I don't believe that species is capable of having that emotion." Also, there's a danger in assuming that emotion is not present because one species doesn't display it in the same way as another species. In one of the behavioral labs I worked in, we had a quote from a Victorian professor on the wall to bring that point home to incoming grad students. The quote, referring to dogs, said, "They can't suffer -- they can't even speak English." I think it's really important to avoid getting our own biases in the way and dismissing the research simply because it doesn't conform to our preconceived ideas about the species. I'm not a tortoise expert, and haven't read any recent studies (though I will now, for sure!), so I can't speak to tortoises in particular, but I can say that research supports social bonding in other reptile species.

I'm interested to see what you find, if you dont mind, would you share here once you come up with some tort research on the matter?

 

[Alaskamike]

So interesting to read this discussion. Been an interest of mine for many years. There is still, and always will be much to learn

 

[MaryandTrouble]

I did a thread on this a while back. It's difficult for humans to know the difference between an animal utilizing instincts versus us(humans) applying an emotion, feeling, or parallel comparison towards animals that relates to us. Being human I do the same things sure. But 90% of the time I try my hardest and remind myself that they do, and will not posses emotions. They are instilled with survival and instincts only.

Here's the thread on cognitive ethology with research findings of animals and "thinking" like us.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cognitive-ethology.104135/

I would like to refer to the book called Wild Justice by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce. It talks specifically about the study of emotional connection between animals. Now I admittedly don't have much experience with tortoises, as mine is my first. But as to whether animals form emotional connections to those who are good to them, I'd say all my experience points to a certain affirmative. Emotions did form as an evolutionary response to social instincts, after all, and the same pheromones and chemical responses are present I animals that are in us. Now, an animal's emotions are not quite the same or as deeply integral in the brain structure as a human's, but they are present.

 

[W Shaw]

My first quick lit scan turned up one study on Gopher tortoises who apparently have the same issues with long distant translocation that rattlesnakes do -- including the issue of not dealing well with disruption of their social bonds and another journal article that I didn't have time to look too far into, but it had to do with reptiles having been until recently largely ignored in ethology. Haven't had time to look too far yet.

 

[W Shaw]

I would like to refer to the book called Wild Justice by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce. It talks specifically about the study of emotional connection between animals. Now I admittedly don't have much experience with tortoises, as mine is my first. But as to whether animals form emotional connections to those who are good to them, I'd say all my experience points to a certain affirmative. Emotions did form as an evolutionary response to social instincts, after all, and the same pheromones and chemical responses are present I animals that are in us. Now, an animal's emotions are not quite the same or as deeply integral in the brain structure as a human's, but they are present.

I can tell you first hand from working with nonhumans who could use human language (American Sign Language) to communicate, that other species certainly have emotions and form close bonds. Of course social species will bond more readily and strongly than less social species, and as an article I caught a quick look at this week noted, reptiles have been largely ignored when it comes to studying social behavior, but that is changing. At one time, people said the same about even primates like chimps, but that's certainly been overturned long since. I've been happy in recent years to see the move toward ethological studies on reptiles. Even my herpetological mentor who was totally into bioenergetics and had very little interest in ethology has shifted his area of interest and is now focusing much more on social behavior. My background is totally ethological, rather than biological, so social behavior has been my thing all along.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

We are on the same page now.

Understanding animal behavior has been my career for a long time. I've seen that I have a different perspective than many people. I'm glad to be able to discuss it on a forum like this.

Did you ever meet Bob? Or read a Bob story???

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Did you ever meet Bob? Or read a Bob story???

Anybody who met Bob and I will tell you there was a speicil bond there. It started by socializing him from the beginning.