Tortoise connections with humans

[Michael Twohy]

and if you're gonna get a tortoise, don't get one from a pet store (petsmart, petco, etc.)!

 

[Russianuncletwo]

We must have lucked out. My precious Luna was purchased at a Petsmart over 3 years ago and is as strong and healthy as a horse and a great joy.

 

[Michael Twohy]

We must have lucked out. My precious Luna was purchased at a Petsmart over 3 years ago and is as strong and healthy as a horse and a great joy.

actually I got my tortoise (his name is Borris, he is my profile picture) at petsmart too! I did tons of research (like, for 2 months) but I guess I never found out how the tortoises get to the pet store..... whatever. He is a hilarious tortoise with such a personality I can't imagine living without him

 

[Russianuncletwo]

That's nice to hear about Borris! Based on the fact they "held" Luna for 24 hours for me by phone and all that that involved, I formed a good bond with the Petsmart manager and reptile specialist who swore their torts were captive bred and checked out upon arrival at their in-house vet station before they are put on display. Other than the fact (3 issues) the manager was not aware of some of the permit requirements by tort owners/purchasers in the nearby bordering neighboring state (forgivable), there were some tort-taboo carrot shreds among the store tort dish food (maybe they think a treat keeps them happy after stress of transport) and I have a strange feeling the "female" that was sold turned out to be a male (if you knew her younger tail, it looked pretty female!), they were very dedicated and gentle handling Luna, went out of their way to furnish me anything we needed for the state and the enclosure they had her in was extremely spacious for a pet store.

 

[jeffjeff]

i don't think for a second that torts form attachments to people. or that they have emotions like we do. i could be completely wrong and in a way would like to be proven so. to think he loves us as much as we love him . i believe they remember things well like who feeds them or handles them and get to know who/what is safe. i'd assume that's the survival instinct in them. Q if they did have emotions and form attachments do you think they would they look after there eggs and hatch lings like birds and mammals do for their young?

 

[Russianuncletwo]

But if so, isn't it an honor and a thrill to have gained their trust - a reptile, 1/50th your size!. There are domesticated mammals that give less and I've also had a fine mutual "same wavelength" relationship with one very typically domesticated mammal, similar to this Russian tortoise/human relationship.

 

[smarch]

To answer your original question, as long as your intent is to keep him for a while before possibly having to give up the tort its completely reasonable. With tortoises living so long it happens at some point or another anyways most of the time. As for finding a suitable home when/if that time comes, your on this site, if you stay and post more you'll come to know people and trust them, we have a section where you can post looking to rehome, and then you'd know from the responses and be able to look into the people who are interested by what they've posted. (just don't be afraid of shipping, I still am but people do it often and will guide you through it).
My suggestion is look on craigslist and for rescues with a tortoise species of your choosing, might as well give one who needs a home a home right? (plus it'll usually cost less than a pet store with things included)

Now for my statement on tortoises and bonds. I have a bond with my little Russian Franklin, and I like to think he has one with me, but in reality that's me putting in human emotion. I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that, in act I pretend I don't even know that. See I have Franklin in my life because of severe depression. I have had a few suicidal stages of my life, a few times I wanted to run away and leave my life, but the fact that "he would miss me" is what kept me around. I have a cousin who owns a tort as well, she could care for him, but "he'd miss me" So basically, for me, I rely on the bond and the illusion of it, its part of him being there for me. But I do know its an illusion.
But I also believe tortoises CAN form bonds, that's not to mean they wouldn't be able to move on to the next home when the time came, but that they recognize their owner as more than just a "food God" and actually do emotionally like them. Have you seen Bob the Sulcata on here yet? I mean that's a bond if I've ever seen one, and the bond I hope one day Nank and I have.

 

[Tom]

...the Petsmart manager and reptile specialist who swore their torts were captive bred and checked out upon arrival at their in-house vet station before they are put on display.

They are not intentionally being dishonest. They are lied to. They are told these animals are "farm raised" in foreign countries before import. It is a lie used to get them into the country, and their shells and appearance tell the obvious true story. If you can find a captive bred tortoise of similar size and age (age of yours will be a wild guess at best), compare the appearance of their shells. Totally different.

 

[Tom]

I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that,..

We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.

 

[Dizisdalife]

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.

Fascinating. Bird keepers have told me of their parrots identifying other pets in the home (cats and dogs) as part of their flock. If nothing else, I think the connection a tortoise has with it's keeper is at minimum a degree of trust. When my sulcata sees my wife or me he will stop, seemingly to make eye contact, before continuing on his way. He doesn't do this when strangers come near his pen.

 

[mini_max]

For what it's worth, I was just about to post how I had a really cute interaction with my tortoise a little while ago. I know it was just a combination of instincts and physiological responses, but to me him being comfy enough to interact with me means a lot!

 

[Russianuncletwo]

To answer your original question, as long as your intent is to keep him for a while before possibly having to give up the tort its completely reasonable. With tortoises living so long it happens at some point or another anyways most of the time. As for finding a suitable home when/if that time comes, your on this site, if you stay and post more you'll come to know people and trust them, we have a section where you can post looking to rehome, and then you'd know from the responses and be able to look into the people who are interested by what they've posted. (just don't be afraid of shipping, I still am but people do it often and will guide you through it).
My suggestion is look on craigslist and for rescues with a tortoise species of your choosing, might as well give one who needs a home a home right? (plus it'll usually cost less than a pet store with things included)

Now for my statement on tortoises and bonds. I have a bond with my little Russian Franklin, and I like to think he has one with me, but in reality that's me putting in human emotion. I know reptile brains aren't made for things like connection, its all about survival, I just don't like to think my Franklin is like that, in act I pretend I don't even know that. See I have Franklin in my life because of severe depression. I have had a few suicidal stages of my life, a few times I wanted to run away and leave my life, but the fact that "he would miss me" is what kept me around. I have a cousin who owns a tort as well, she could care for him, but "he'd miss me" So basically, for me, I rely on the bond and the illusion of it, its part of him being there for me. But I do know its an illusion.
But I also believe tortoises CAN form bonds, that's not to mean they wouldn't be able to move on to the next home when the time came, but that they recognize their owner as more than just a "food God" and actually do emotionally like them. Have you seen Bob the Sulcata on here yet? I mean that's a bond if I've ever seen one, and the bond I hope one day Nank and I have.

If Franklin is that important to you, he is getting that much better care than he may get from someone else and you can d-mn well bet he'd miss you for that alone, besides the comfort zone he has already picked up with you. These torts can take a long time to readjust in a changed environment or to a new daddy. I've seen it. They show more appreciation than we give them credit for. Parents say they "love" their infant yet an infant is technically a ruthless living being who just wants instant gratification and doesn't differentiate who gives them the bottle and later in life they don't even remember/acknowledge that phase of their life to even appreciate their parents laborious effort or bonding session. You are making Franklin happy like I am making Luna happy. Luna obviously gets into her neck being rubbed and stretches out more for me to do it. Luna could have been stuck in some box the rest of her life with one soaking a week - we gave her roaming privileges, the food she likes, the supplements, the temperature, the yard walks, the gentleness, the adventures. She doesn't bite or cause me harm either like some animals can that may look more "loving". Activities one does with someone in a form of relationship are different from the other (i.e. spouse, buddy, relative) but they are all true relationships nonetheless and normally worth having. Now I'm on my own with tortoise Luna. You can bet I'm sticking around for her till the very last minute I can.

 

[smarch]

We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.

Wow, every time I think I know such a fact its already outdated. My own fault since I haven't been keeping up, and these knowledges grow constantly. That's actually very fascinating. I wont go too into the topic and take away from the OP but that's a good fact to know thank you!

 

[VBgecko]

Do I think my tort is in love with me and my best friend? Not really … I agree that humans would like to think all wild animals have a deep connection, but they are still just that, wild animals. Look what happened to that moron trying to commune with grizzly bears, or even the even bigger morons in N. Minn. hand feeding bears to tame them and do research. Most of the bears are dead by hunters because they now approach humans in search of food.

I love my dog like a human child, but there's a fine line between giving her love and keeping the order in the pack, because she is a dog and that's how they operate. Do good in the pack? Get a reward. Step a toe out of line and challenge my alpha status? Discipline and put in your place.

As far as having a relationship between Scooter and myself, I think it is totally feasible. But it's one out of need and safety. He's independent, but he has those moments where he'll give into snuggling on my lap on a heating pad. I'd like to think he does it because he loves me in some way, but really, it's just because it's warm, he snoozes a lot, and I'm seen as a positive source for things he wants and not a threat.

He also says hello to my mom more than me when we're out in the garden working (makes me jealous sometimes --basic human emotion), because my mom is out there the most during the summer months and always on his turf not bugging him like I have to do when I need to check up on him or retrieve him because of the threat of severe weather.

I see it as a friendly hello, but really I think it's a recognition thing, or wanting something more than it's him wanting to be BFFs.

But Scooter not having a loving connection isn't why I have him. I'm just in love with the tort way of life; the independent nature, the curiosity, the fascination with the science behind the species and its not needing to change in 200 million years of existence (not to mention I'm a weirdo who thinks they are FREAKING ADORABLE!).

Naw, Scooter doesn't connect or relate with his keepers because of a deep love. He does it because he needs me to survive in captivity.

Just my 2¢ ...

 

[Kenno]

We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.

It's great to hear this from you, Tom.

I have no illusions about the 3 CDT's in my yard having any attachment to me, but as a careful observer of their behavior, I've noticed a couple of things:

Although we say they're not social, there is a bond between the 65 year old and the teenager who was raised with him. The young one follows the old one around. The old one always goes to sleep first, usually in a different spot each night, and the young one will walk around for another 30-60 minutes, then lie down and sleep next to the old one. On occasion the youngest will sleep next to the middle one, but he almost never sleeps alone.

My conclusion is that the youngest has some kind of bond with the oldest. Also, I recognize my good fortune in that they don't fight! They seem to have their 'pecking order' all worked out.

 

[Tom]

It's great to hear this from you, Tom.

I have no illusions about the 3 CDT's in my yard having any attachment to me, but as a careful observer of their behavior, I've noticed a couple of things:

Although we say they're not social, there is a bond between the 65 year old and the teenager who was raised with him. The young one follows the old one around. The old one always goes to sleep first, usually in a different spot each night, and the young one will walk around for another 30-60 minutes, then lie down and sleep next to the old one. On occasion the youngest will sleep next to the middle one, but he almost never sleeps alone.

My conclusion is that the youngest has some kind of bond with the oldest. Also, I recognize my good fortune in that they don't fight! They seem to have their 'pecking order' all worked out.

I'm seeing some interesting things with my star group. I have 10. 4 from one source (Blue group), 4 from another (Pink Group), and 2 from the third source(Green group). For about a year I had them living in a 4x8' enclosure divided down the middle into two 4x4' enclosures. 4 on one side and 4+2 on the other. All of them were within 4-6 weeks of each other in age and within a few grams of each other in size when I got them all. I have them all marked (blue, green and pink) so I can track their growth and health. The two green ones have lived with the pink ones since day one, but they are almost always hanging out together and away from the pink ones. I am at a loss to explain why they seem to prefer the company of each other to that of other members of their same species of the same age and size, but most of the time when I find one of the green ones, the other is either nestled near him or close by. And at this point they both appear to be male. I recently mixed up the groups, opened up the divider and moved the 5 biggest ones to their own 4x8" enclosure. So now its 5 and 5 in two separate 4x8" enclosures. The two greens ones got moved in with a pink and two blues, but they still hang out with each other a lot. They sure seem to "like" each other.

 

[W Shaw]

We are finding more and more that this is not the case. I've seen field observations of Hermanni, leopards, bowsprits, sulcatas, red foots, and manouria, suggesting that they have "communities" of sorts and individuals recognize and "know" each other. There are some very good accounts of these "neighborhoods" in Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book "Naturalistic Keeping And Breeding Of Hermann's Tortoises". He describes individuals ambling about their territories and stumbling upon neighbors that he believes they recognize and accept. Fascinating reading for me anyway.

They may have more of a capacity for accepting and recognizing conspecifics than we realize. I think they would look at us as conspecifics in some ways. Especially in CB raised animals.

As this relates to the original thread title, it does seem to me that there is some sort of "connection" depending on how we wish to define "connection". I still don't think they "like" or "love" us the way we do them, but they certainly do recognize us compared to other humans that they don't regularly interact with.

I know this is an old post, but I wanted to bump it up a but because it's a really important point. 20 years ago, people thought of rattlesnakes as more less just killing machines. Now we know that they actually have mother-infant bonds and even a male will "babysit" and defend infants. We know that they have lifelong bonds with their siblings, have "friends" of both genders with whom they spend more time than they do with others in the same den. a lone rattlesnake who is relocated will almost always die, but a whole den may be safely relocated if the social bonds are kept intact (such as keeping mothers and infants together, and not separating courting couples). They're also very bright and curious about new things, and capable of advance planning.

It's human nature to dismiss the emotions and intelligence of other species, but almost without exception, every new study finds that the species in question has much more complex language, emotion and intellect than the researchers expected to find. Certainly some species are more social than others, but humans are also often blind to the social behaviors of other species. One captive rattlesnake I spent a lot of time visiting with, when I rested my forehead on the window outside his enclosure, would come to me, and raise himself up to rest his chin where my forehead rested. He was in a separate room, distanced from me by a window, an air space, and the side of his enclosure, so there was no heat issue. He would stay in that position for 20 minutes or more. When he got so old that he could no longer hold himself up, he'd cross the enclosure and press his side up against the glass, waiting for me to rest an arm against the glass. In the wild they do a lot of cuddling, and he had no one to cuddle with, so he'd do his best to cuddle with me, even though there was all that space between us.

It's a mistake to expect that other species think exactly the way humans do, but also a mistake, I think, to assume that they're asocial because their social behaviors are different or more subtle than ours. Even something as simple as choosing to spend time in proximity to another individual is social behavior. I have friends I'm content to spend time with, but don't fall all over them, hugging them, or check in with them every five minutes. There's still a bond there, and I'd miss them if they went away.

 

[AnimalLady]

Reptiles don't care. As long as they are housed and cared for properly, they will be fine. They don't form any sort of emotional attachment.

I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
This made me a little sad

 

[Tom]

I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
This made me a little sad

I say this based on everything I've read and studied over a lifetime of dealing with animals and decades of personal observation.

You may be sad, but your tortoise most certainly isn't.

Do an Internet search for "anthropomorphism".

 

[W Shaw]

I know this is old, but, why do you say this? Is it a proven fact?
This made me a little sad

This is NOT a proven fact, actually. If you take a look at my post above, you'll see that more recent studies indicate that reptiles DO form emotional bonds. We don't know exactly what emotions they feel, because we're not psychics. We do know that they are self-aware (for example the recent studies showing that rattlesnakes recognize their own scent), and that they... well. I already said it above. I'm more familiar with the rattlesnake research than the tortoise research, but they're both reptiles. I'm sure I could dig up some studies on tortoise social behavior, if you want me to. Not all species are strongly social, and solitary species are of course less likely to form long-term social bonds. It doesn't necessarily follow that they aren't self-aware and don't experience emotions. Current research suggests otherwise.