Hi there I have a 4 yr old russian Horsefield. Have now done the recommended 4 weeks starve and he is now cooled to a steady 10 degrees celsius. But he is still very active and really wont settle. Im worried he will be using his reserves and will get dehydrated and poorly. Please help quick! very worried Horsefield owner.
Tort not wanting to hibernate
- Thread starter hellybort
- Start date
- Status
Feed him and let him stay awake...hibernation is absolutely optional in European tortoises (and most others).
And, if you don't know what you're doing exactly, it can be deadly.
And, if you don't know what you're doing exactly, it can be deadly.
Welcome to the Forum 
The how long have you had your tortoise? If you are not comfortable with the process of brumation then study further....
However, if you are and your plan is to allow him to brumate then;
How are you cooling him down? Outside..inside...how?
Where are you trying to settle him in for brumation?
The how long have you had your tortoise? If you are not comfortable with the process of brumation then study further....However, if you are and your plan is to allow him to brumate then;
How are you cooling him down? Outside..inside...how?
Where are you trying to settle him in for brumation?
Hi hellybort:
Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!
May we know your name and where you are?
If you have an indoor tortoise, there is no reason to allow him to brumate. Just keep him warm and feed him.
Welcome to the Tortoise Forum!!
May we know your name and where you are?
If you have an indoor tortoise, there is no reason to allow him to brumate. Just keep him warm and feed him.
He is telling you what he wants, and it appears that is to stay awake.
It is variable: some torts just 'go down', and that's that. Others stay active and just do better overwintering w/o hibernating.
He will be perfectly fine staying awake.
It is variable: some torts just 'go down', and that's that. Others stay active and just do better overwintering w/o hibernating.
He will be perfectly fine staying awake.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,617
- Location (City and/or State)
- The Catskill Mountains of New York State
10c (50f) is not cold enough for a Horsfield tortoise to begin brumation (hibernation). Horsfield tortoises have a much lower temperature threshold than many other temperature climate species. Most will not settle down and begin brumation until temperatures are closer to 4.5c (40f) and some at 3.4c (38f). In preparing for brumation, along with cleaning their digestive system out by stopping feed your tortoise should have also been watered (soaked) to provide addition hydration if it needed it. As well as the duration and intensity of light be greatly reduced.
If after this process your tortoise still does not show signs of settling down it would not be advisable to "force" him to do so. At that point he is better off being kept awake and fully active with regular feeding, normal activity temperatures and light duration and intensity.
Brumation is not for everyone (or every tortoise). Many people keep their tortoises awake and active year round with no problems.
If after this process your tortoise still does not show signs of settling down it would not be advisable to "force" him to do so. At that point he is better off being kept awake and fully active with regular feeding, normal activity temperatures and light duration and intensity.
Brumation is not for everyone (or every tortoise). Many people keep their tortoises awake and active year round with no problems.
Hi all!
Lynn
Not really what he wants... If a Redfoot became slugish at 15*C, should we assume that he wants to... brumate?? Of course not!
It is just because Horsfields are still active at temperatures that make other Testudo sleep! That meaning it is even more adapted to COLD (not that he wants to be warmed up!), which is quite obvious: it lives in areas with infernal long and cold winters, it is the northernmost Testudinid.
Terry,
The only hibernating tortoises are the European (including the close related Horsfieldi) Gophers, maybe Chacos and some S-African ones. By saying "optional", you surely define a "must be" category too- but these are the only hibernating ones!
I would say that if winding-down was done properly, no danger letting the Horsfield hibernate! Enough wind-down, no food left in the stomach, very strong and active tortoise, good sloping of temperatures down to 10*C- what more should it be? Just a cool, not too dry hibernaculum and monthly check!
In this case, at least in this one, Hellybort, you should give him a proper place to hibernate. Maybe you should put him in a box with garden soil, and go to 5*C, see what happens and let us know. Also, please say something about your conditions- outdoor, outbuilding, shed, fridge?
Cheers!
lynnedit said:
Lynn
Not really what he wants... If a Redfoot became slugish at 15*C, should we assume that he wants to... brumate?? Of course not!
It is just because Horsfields are still active at temperatures that make other Testudo sleep! That meaning it is even more adapted to COLD (not that he wants to be warmed up!), which is quite obvious: it lives in areas with infernal long and cold winters, it is the northernmost Testudinid.
Terry,
The only hibernating tortoises are the European (including the close related Horsfieldi) Gophers, maybe Chacos and some S-African ones. By saying "optional", you surely define a "must be" category too- but these are the only hibernating ones!
I would say that if winding-down was done properly, no danger letting the Horsfield hibernate! Enough wind-down, no food left in the stomach, very strong and active tortoise, good sloping of temperatures down to 10*C- what more should it be? Just a cool, not too dry hibernaculum and monthly check!
In this case, at least in this one, Hellybort, you should give him a proper place to hibernate. Maybe you should put him in a box with garden soil, and go to 5*C, see what happens and let us know. Also, please say something about your conditions- outdoor, outbuilding, shed, fridge?
Cheers!
CactusVinnie said:
Vinnie,
After 40 years of tortoise keeping, I can assure you that there's no good reason to think that "hibernating" tortoise species must brumate, because that's simply not true.
As any experienced tortoise-keeper will tell you, even under the most carefully controlled conditions, some "presumably healthy" tortoises simply don't survive brumation, in captivity and in the wild...
So why risk it?
Terry,
It is surely true, but brumation-deaths in the wild are always the consequences of a very weakened health, either by heavy wormload, exhaustion after a bad year, very cold and humid year generating illnesses that are not cured in time, unhealed/infected wounds, burrow flooding and many other reasons that simply don't occur in captivity- even if we cannot equate nature, at least many extremes and dangers are out of the questionredation, famine, drought, flood, uncured illness, freezing etc.
Most deaths in captivity occur rather from other reasons; I don't think there are so many "mysterious, unexplained deaths" but deaths due to very quantifiable factors, simply not noticed by the owners. I am curious to find how many deaths did you recorded in brumating tortoises (if you did brumate them), or GBTortoises, or any experienced keeper- I really doubt that they were so many to conclude that brumation is risky, if any death at all! Most reports came rather from beginners, and I suppose (just a personal thought) that, even with a perfect healthy tortoise, most of deaths were caused by... dehydration, or generally bad brumating conditions. Or, very low quality food, that are also weakening the tortoises. Many of them surely are not able to distinguish between a healthy tortoise or a weakened or sick one, and maybe not gaining further knowledge from their losses. It depends on the way they perceive their animals.
So, if good husbandry is provided, good, healthy food and outdoor keeping-> strong tortoise able to brumate successfuly, if preparing is well done and suited hibernaculum conditions.
Pet-shop tortoises, weakened by parasites, wrong diet, glass vivariums or any unsuitable indoor enclosure, new owner often ignorant with no general knowledge on tortoises etc.- yes, these are surely the recipe for disaster, and brumation can kill such poor tortoises even before all these abuses will take their toll; yes, if not brumated, these poor tortoises can live long enough to became monstruous, but no doubt that brumation will put an end to this torture much earlier.
Hellybort's tortoise sound like a strong one, not an apatic, weak individual. His owner report about wind-down sounds ok as well, so that's why my opinion was "go on and let us know". Monitoring weight should signal a potential problem- usually, it's simply about dehidration, wich is as dangerous as it is simple and preventable.
Of course is mandatory to offer the best conditions to the tortoise before considering brumation:
Agree with the first part!
But if GB's and the other non-brumating keeper's tortoises have "no problems", meaning no health issues, no pyramiding and no carences at all, then it is already about non-beginners, but experienced keepers, for sure. To raise non-deformed tortoises when not brumating, wich is a relative difficult job even with brumation, it surely indicate quite a level of knowledge. So, we talk about very healthy tortoises able either to overwinter, or to brumate, with the same ease and level of security- depending on the owner's wish!
I can say as well that overwintering is not for everyone, because keeping the tortoise awake year-round too, if not offering perfect husbandry and food, will invariable lead to severe diformities, serious health issues and premature death.
Both approaches- brumating or non- have their dangers, if the owner has no serious interest in documenting and learning about tortoises, and just resume to making it a simple pet.
Both approaches work apparently equally well if the rest of factors are optimal.
If good maintenance (place and food) is provided, and both variants may work, why not to choose the natural one, that also proved more useful at least for breeding?
Cheers!
It is surely true, but brumation-deaths in the wild are always the consequences of a very weakened health, either by heavy wormload, exhaustion after a bad year, very cold and humid year generating illnesses that are not cured in time, unhealed/infected wounds, burrow flooding and many other reasons that simply don't occur in captivity- even if we cannot equate nature, at least many extremes and dangers are out of the question
redation, famine, drought, flood, uncured illness, freezing etc. Most deaths in captivity occur rather from other reasons; I don't think there are so many "mysterious, unexplained deaths" but deaths due to very quantifiable factors, simply not noticed by the owners. I am curious to find how many deaths did you recorded in brumating tortoises (if you did brumate them), or GBTortoises, or any experienced keeper- I really doubt that they were so many to conclude that brumation is risky, if any death at all! Most reports came rather from beginners, and I suppose (just a personal thought) that, even with a perfect healthy tortoise, most of deaths were caused by... dehydration, or generally bad brumating conditions. Or, very low quality food, that are also weakening the tortoises. Many of them surely are not able to distinguish between a healthy tortoise or a weakened or sick one, and maybe not gaining further knowledge from their losses. It depends on the way they perceive their animals.
So, if good husbandry is provided, good, healthy food and outdoor keeping-> strong tortoise able to brumate successfuly, if preparing is well done and suited hibernaculum conditions.
Pet-shop tortoises, weakened by parasites, wrong diet, glass vivariums or any unsuitable indoor enclosure, new owner often ignorant with no general knowledge on tortoises etc.- yes, these are surely the recipe for disaster, and brumation can kill such poor tortoises even before all these abuses will take their toll; yes, if not brumated, these poor tortoises can live long enough to became monstruous, but no doubt that brumation will put an end to this torture much earlier.
Hellybort's tortoise sound like a strong one, not an apatic, weak individual. His owner report about wind-down sounds ok as well, so that's why my opinion was "go on and let us know". Monitoring weight should signal a potential problem- usually, it's simply about dehidration, wich is as dangerous as it is simple and preventable.
Of course is mandatory to offer the best conditions to the tortoise before considering brumation:
Agree with the first part!
But if GB's and the other non-brumating keeper's tortoises have "no problems", meaning no health issues, no pyramiding and no carences at all, then it is already about non-beginners, but experienced keepers, for sure. To raise non-deformed tortoises when not brumating, wich is a relative difficult job even with brumation, it surely indicate quite a level of knowledge. So, we talk about very healthy tortoises able either to overwinter, or to brumate, with the same ease and level of security- depending on the owner's wish!
I can say as well that overwintering is not for everyone, because keeping the tortoise awake year-round too, if not offering perfect husbandry and food, will invariable lead to severe diformities, serious health issues and premature death.
Both approaches- brumating or non- have their dangers, if the owner has no serious interest in documenting and learning about tortoises, and just resume to making it a simple pet.
Both approaches work apparently equally well if the rest of factors are optimal.
If good maintenance (place and food) is provided, and both variants may work, why not to choose the natural one, that also proved more useful at least for breeding?
Cheers!
I'm glad hibernation is optional cause I am NOT letting my Russian girl do it. She is such a little piggy she couldn't go without eating anyways! Lol!
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,617
- Location (City and/or State)
- The Catskill Mountains of New York State
"keeping the tortoise awake year-round too, if not offering perfect husbandry and food, will invariable lead to severe diformities, serious health issues and premature death."
The above statement is completely opinion, not fact. Lack of brumation has nothing to do with growth deformities whatsoever. Growth deformities happen as result of incorrect environmental conditions and diet. Lack of brumation also does not cause health issues or premature death unless a tortoise is not being cared for correctly. This lack of correct care can also be taking place at any time of the year as well. Not brumating a tortoise has nothing to do with incorrect care. Incorrect care is just that, incorrect care, the time of year has nothing to do with it. But in fact tortoises can develop serious health issues and die prematurely because of improper brumation techniques. which does falls under improper care.
Again, tortoise brumation is not for everyone. Some are more confident in doing so than others. Many new and inexperienced keepers are not confident about doing so. Many experienced keepers realize the potential risk involved and do not wish to put their animals through that risk with the chance of losing the animal. Here in the U.S. our number of tortoises is limited by what is available. We do not live in the countries where the tortoises are native and can be easily "rescued" into captivity.
For nearly 30 years I have kept some tortoises active and brumated others through the winter. Wild caught and captive born mix in both situations. Interestly both examples are all healthy, active, normal and reproduce annually. None are deformed, all look about the same and if anyone were to come here and look at them they would not be able to distinguish between the two in any way.
The above statement is completely opinion, not fact. Lack of brumation has nothing to do with growth deformities whatsoever. Growth deformities happen as result of incorrect environmental conditions and diet. Lack of brumation also does not cause health issues or premature death unless a tortoise is not being cared for correctly. This lack of correct care can also be taking place at any time of the year as well. Not brumating a tortoise has nothing to do with incorrect care. Incorrect care is just that, incorrect care, the time of year has nothing to do with it. But in fact tortoises can develop serious health issues and die prematurely because of improper brumation techniques. which does falls under improper care.
Again, tortoise brumation is not for everyone. Some are more confident in doing so than others. Many new and inexperienced keepers are not confident about doing so. Many experienced keepers realize the potential risk involved and do not wish to put their animals through that risk with the chance of losing the animal. Here in the U.S. our number of tortoises is limited by what is available. We do not live in the countries where the tortoises are native and can be easily "rescued" into captivity.
For nearly 30 years I have kept some tortoises active and brumated others through the winter. Wild caught and captive born mix in both situations. Interestly both examples are all healthy, active, normal and reproduce annually. None are deformed, all look about the same and if anyone were to come here and look at them they would not be able to distinguish between the two in any way.
Hello Hellybort and welcome to the forum...
No, GB, I said the same thing as you. See the bolds. And many times, just by overfeeding and lack of brumation, even good diet can slightly pyramide some tortoises- accelerated growth, seeing some concrete examples.
Has this quote something to do with my signature? Hope not... But just in case, FYI, I got all my natives from already captive situations, from "quite bad" to "horrible". So indeed, the correct term is rescued, without peiorative symbols ("rescued"), their pityful situation changed, babies came (1 clutch/female) and all of them will go back in habitat.
You forgot something: did you lose tortoises during brumation? The reason for that question is explained in my last message.
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
(invariable lead to severe diformities, serious health issues and premature death)
That's the biggest load of crap I have read on here lately!
That's the biggest load of crap I have read on here lately!
Hellybort, as you can see, To Hibernate or Not to Hibernate is quite controversial.
Bottom line is that both ways can work well. However, it does take some experience to hibernate a tort, and most recommend you have owned them for at least a year, anyway.
You can overwinter your tort this year and he will be FINE! Enjoy.
Bottom line is that both ways can work well. However, it does take some experience to hibernate a tort, and most recommend you have owned them for at least a year, anyway.
You can overwinter your tort this year and he will be FINE! Enjoy.
Uh....i think we lost Hellybort
maggie3fan said:
My thoughts exactly, but I thought I'd be diplomatic to Vinnie...otoh, sometimes diplomacy is vastly over-rated!
ascott said:Uh....i think we lost Hellybort
Hopefully not...Hellybort, hang around, 'cause this is a REALLY nice bunch of folks!
And, BTW, Welcome!!!
With all due respect for the people that were truly respectful and nice (including the ones not sharing the same opinions, but expressing polite and friendly their views!), Maggie from Oregon, GB (calling me indirectly a... poacher) and Terry gave me cordially a sample of American arogance and "refinement". "Hospitality" too, it sems that someone not sharing some limited local Guru dogmas will be sooner or later insulted and "helped" to leave...
I was diplomatic too, since in my opinion (as an ecologist) many replies were really full of crap, but instead being unpolite, wich is not a pleasant or useful thing, and leads to nowhere, I prefered to share my opinions and find the others, as I know that is the right way to build knowledge- by polite discussion. It is a loss for me, since I will not benefit from their experience, loss for them, since they are not leaving their narrow vision... but it wasn't me the first deciding "diplomacy is overrated".
I'm quite old-fashioned, and I give more credit to diplomacy, and my tolerance is a little wider. Only when all proves it is a lost cause, then I'll show my teeth- but I really didn't deserved that, and, come on, it is a FORUM, not a battlefield!!!
Well, since I was gracefuly announced that I don't belong to the "club", it is my last post here.
Glad for meeting some nice people here, glad also to learn another lesson on arogance and sufficience, but now I got to move on.
All the best to everyone!
PS:
That's the attitude I like most! Tolerating for a while, but when "those guys" are not understanding the message, we send our boys overseas to teach them a lesson(with low, grave voice).
Good luck in Irak and Afghanistan, and best wishes for the future in Iran and North Korea! Who's next?
All things should have limits, isn't it ? Yes, of course... but it seems that some guys think they are the ones to establish the line, both for the world, as for a simple forum- the behavioural pattern is the same.
Crappy... and creepy...
PS2:
By "American arrogance" I don't want to insult American people as a whole- in fact, not wanting to insult anyone, just observing that common pattern that even many simple people follow; it is a Govt pattern, not a citizen's one. And to immunise myself against anti-Americanist accusations... please note that my paternal grandpa was a true American; as a man, he defined himself in the US, leaving Europe and working from age 11 to 30 in New England; he wasn't anymore a Romanian, but a true American- in attitude, behaviour and views on life. But the other type of American!
I'm out.
I was diplomatic too, since in my opinion (as an ecologist) many replies were really full of crap, but instead being unpolite, wich is not a pleasant or useful thing, and leads to nowhere, I prefered to share my opinions and find the others, as I know that is the right way to build knowledge- by polite discussion. It is a loss for me, since I will not benefit from their experience, loss for them, since they are not leaving their narrow vision... but it wasn't me the first deciding "diplomacy is overrated".
I'm quite old-fashioned, and I give more credit to diplomacy, and my tolerance is a little wider. Only when all proves it is a lost cause, then I'll show my teeth- but I really didn't deserved that, and, come on, it is a FORUM, not a battlefield!!!
Well, since I was gracefuly announced that I don't belong to the "club", it is my last post here.
Glad for meeting some nice people here, glad also to learn another lesson on arogance and sufficience, but now I got to move on.
All the best to everyone!
PS:
That's the attitude I like most! Tolerating for a while
, but when "those guys" are not understanding the message, we send our boys overseas to teach them a lesson(with low, grave voice).Good luck in Irak and Afghanistan, and best wishes for the future in Iran and North Korea! Who's next?
All things should have limits, isn't it
? Yes, of course... but it seems that some guys think they are the ones to establish the line, both for the world, as for a simple forum- the behavioural pattern is the same. Crappy... and creepy...
PS2:
By "American arrogance" I don't want to insult American people as a whole- in fact, not wanting to insult anyone, just observing that common pattern that even many simple people follow; it is a Govt pattern, not a citizen's one. And to immunise myself against anti-Americanist accusations... please note that my paternal grandpa was a true American; as a man, he defined himself in the US, leaving Europe and working from age 11 to 30 in New England; he wasn't anymore a Romanian, but a true American- in attitude, behaviour and views on life. But the other type of American!
I'm out.
With all due respect for the people that were truly respectful and nice (including the ones not sharing the same opinions, but expressing polite and friendly their views!), Maggie from Oregon, GB (calling me indirectly a... poacher) and Terry gave me cordially a sample of American arogance and "refinement". "Hospitality" too, it sems that someone not sharing some limited local Guru dogmas will be sooner or later insulted and "helped" to leave...
I was diplomatic too, since in my opinion (as an ecologist) many replies were really full of crap, but instead being unpolite, wich is not a pleasant or useful thing, and leads to nowhere, I prefered to share my opinions and find the others, as I know that is the right way to build knowledge- by polite discussion. It is a loss for me, since I will not benefit from their experience, loss for them, since they are not leaving their narrow vision... but it wasn't me the first deciding "diplomacy is overrated".
I'm quite old-fashioned, and I give more credit to diplomacy, and my tolerance is a little wider. Only when all proves it is a lost cause, then I'll show my teeth- but I really didn't deserved that, and, come on, it is a FORUM, not a battlefield!!!
Well, since I was gracefuly announced that I don't belong to the "club", it is my last post here.
Glad for meeting some nice people here, glad also to learn another lesson on arogance and sufficience, but now I got to move on.
All the best to everyone!
PS:
Quote:
My thoughts exactly, but I thought I'd be diplomatic to Vinnie...otoh, sometimes diplomacy is vastly over-rated!
That's the attitude I like most! Tolerating for a while , but when "those guys" are not understanding the message, we send our boys overseas to teach them a lesson(with low, grave voice).
Good luck in Irak and Afghanistan, and best wishes for the future in Iran and North Korea! Who's next?
All things should have limits, isn't it ? Yes, of course... but it seems that some guys think they are the ones to establish the line, both for the world, as for a simple forum- the behavioural pattern is the same.
Crappy... and creepy...
PS2:
By "American arrogance" I don't want to insult American people as a whole- in fact, not wanting to insult anyone, just observing that common pattern that even many simple people follow; it is a Govt pattern, not a citizen's one. And to immunise myself against anti-Americanist accusations... please note that my paternal grandpa was a true American; as a man, he defined in the US, leaving Europe and working from age 11 to 30 in New England; he wasn't anymore a Romanian, but a true American- in attitude, behaviour and views on life. But the other type of American!
I'm out.
Fabian
1.2.12 Testudo ibera- rescued Romanian natives
2.0.3 Eurotestudo boettgeri- rescued Greek natives
9.6.0 Agrionemys horsfieldii
1.4.lots Eublepharis macularius
Poecilia wingei- Black Bar from Laguna de los Patos (north lake), Venezuela
other fish, mostly livebearers
hardy cacti
This is a shame. This should not have happened.....I find everyones opinion and experience valuable from one view to the other side of the view. This after all is how we learn, how we learn from one another.
This is very very sad.
I was diplomatic too, since in my opinion (as an ecologist) many replies were really full of crap, but instead being unpolite, wich is not a pleasant or useful thing, and leads to nowhere, I prefered to share my opinions and find the others, as I know that is the right way to build knowledge- by polite discussion. It is a loss for me, since I will not benefit from their experience, loss for them, since they are not leaving their narrow vision... but it wasn't me the first deciding "diplomacy is overrated".
I'm quite old-fashioned, and I give more credit to diplomacy, and my tolerance is a little wider. Only when all proves it is a lost cause, then I'll show my teeth- but I really didn't deserved that, and, come on, it is a FORUM, not a battlefield!!!
Well, since I was gracefuly announced that I don't belong to the "club", it is my last post here.
Glad for meeting some nice people here, glad also to learn another lesson on arogance and sufficience, but now I got to move on.
All the best to everyone!
PS:
Quote:
My thoughts exactly, but I thought I'd be diplomatic to Vinnie...otoh, sometimes diplomacy is vastly over-rated!
That's the attitude I like most! Tolerating for a while , but when "those guys" are not understanding the message, we send our boys overseas to teach them a lesson(with low, grave voice).
Good luck in Irak and Afghanistan, and best wishes for the future in Iran and North Korea! Who's next?
All things should have limits, isn't it ? Yes, of course... but it seems that some guys think they are the ones to establish the line, both for the world, as for a simple forum- the behavioural pattern is the same.
Crappy... and creepy...
PS2:
By "American arrogance" I don't want to insult American people as a whole- in fact, not wanting to insult anyone, just observing that common pattern that even many simple people follow; it is a Govt pattern, not a citizen's one. And to immunise myself against anti-Americanist accusations... please note that my paternal grandpa was a true American; as a man, he defined in the US, leaving Europe and working from age 11 to 30 in New England; he wasn't anymore a Romanian, but a true American- in attitude, behaviour and views on life. But the other type of American!
I'm out.
Fabian
1.2.12 Testudo ibera- rescued Romanian natives
2.0.3 Eurotestudo boettgeri- rescued Greek natives
9.6.0 Agrionemys horsfieldii
1.4.lots Eublepharis macularius
Poecilia wingei- Black Bar from Laguna de los Patos (north lake), Venezuela
other fish, mostly livebearers
hardy cacti
This is a shame. This should not have happened.....I find everyones opinion and experience valuable from one view to the other side of the view. This after all is how we learn, how we learn from one another.
This is very very sad.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,617
- Location (City and/or State)
- The Catskill Mountains of New York State
First I (again) have to apologize for hijacking someone elses thread. I am sorry for doing so Hellybort.
But I will also always take issue with people receiving non-factual information or information that is obviously a scare tactic based on opinion.
CactusVinnie-"Here in the U.S. our number of tortoises is limited by what is available. We do not live in the countries where the tortoises are native and can be easily "rescued" into captivity."
I or no one else called you a poacher. I can only surmise that you must read into statements and then be blindly offended by what you perceive. I quotated the word rescued because it is a term often used and abused in the animal hobbies when people want to justify or feel good about taking animals from the wild and keeping them. I live in an area that has North American Wood and Spotted turtles naturally. I have "rescued" several of them over the years from roadsides, peoples back yards and in other places. But they were all put back in the wild because they are native. People seem to "rescue" alot of animals nowadays, more than ever before. When in actuality they either removed them from the wild, bought them or were given them as a pet. That's not a rescue. Generally the definition of rescue was to save something from danger or to set it free.
I'm done and will no longer impose on this thread. Again, I apologize to the original poster for my intrusion.
But I will also always take issue with people receiving non-factual information or information that is obviously a scare tactic based on opinion.
CactusVinnie-"Here in the U.S. our number of tortoises is limited by what is available. We do not live in the countries where the tortoises are native and can be easily "rescued" into captivity."
I or no one else called you a poacher. I can only surmise that you must read into statements and then be blindly offended by what you perceive. I quotated the word rescued because it is a term often used and abused in the animal hobbies when people want to justify or feel good about taking animals from the wild and keeping them. I live in an area that has North American Wood and Spotted turtles naturally. I have "rescued" several of them over the years from roadsides, peoples back yards and in other places. But they were all put back in the wild because they are native. People seem to "rescue" alot of animals nowadays, more than ever before. When in actuality they either removed them from the wild, bought them or were given them as a pet. That's not a rescue. Generally the definition of rescue was to save something from danger or to set it free.
I'm done and will no longer impose on this thread. Again, I apologize to the original poster for my intrusion.
- Status
Similar threads
New Posts
-
Setting up for a Russian Tortoise - Constructive comments welcome- Latest: _The_Beast_
-
-
-
-
My new baby tortoise suddenly died - thoughts on what could have happened?
- Latest: The_Four_Toed_Edward