To Much Mazuri?

[EppsDynasty]

As I still have alot to learn, reading through random threads is how I'm learning. Reading through several threads now that say NOT to feed Mazuri everyday. Is this right? Am I putting my babies in some danger by feeding Mazuri EVERYDAY, I mean EVERYDAY. For our Sulcata's They are free roaming in their enclosures and graze everyday as well on our Native plants. For our Hermanns they are inside in enclosures but do go out to graze when the weather allows. This is the same for our 3 Desert Tortoises ... Mazuri offered everyday but grazing when weather allows. Is this wrong? I stopped going to the grocery store for food and thought I was doing a good thing.

 

[wellington]

We have a member, they are not on here any more I don't think, but that's all they fed their leopards was mazuri. That I wouldn't do. But to feed some daily, as long as they get other foods, I don't see a problem as I feed it every other day to every third day in winter. However mine are adults. It does help put on size if that's needed. If there is no reason you have to feed it every day then just cut back to every other or so.

 

[Ink]

I feed my leopard (especially in winter) about 6 pellets every other day. In the summer about one a week he gets them. I also use the mulberry pellets and different toppings that I bought from @Kapidolo Farms. It gives him (almost 18 years old) a variety. Plus a variety of greens.

 

[Tom]

As I still have alot to learn, reading through random threads is how I'm learning. Reading through several threads now that say NOT to feed Mazuri everyday. Is this right? Am I putting my babies in some danger by feeding Mazuri EVERYDAY, I mean EVERYDAY. For our Sulcata's They are free roaming in their enclosures and graze everyday as well on our Native plants. For our Hermanns they are inside in enclosures but do go out to graze when the weather allows. This is the same for our 3 Desert Tortoises ... Mazuri offered everyday but grazing when weather allows. Is this wrong? I stopped going to the grocery store for food and thought I was doing a good thing.

First, are we talking about original recipe 5M21, or the newer LS type?

There is no definitive answer to this because no one I know of has done what you are doing. We did have that one very unfriendly member many years ago that said briefly and cryptically that he was doing some sort of experiment with this, but we never heard any details or saw any results.

What you will get is opinions and feelings, much like this from me:
I do think Mazuri 5M21 is a good supplemental food and I've been using it that way for decades. I've had two very knowledgeable people tell me they don't like the corn component and one of those people, plus a third person have mentioned reservations about the molasses content. These aren't rank beginners. These are some smart people. While I've not ever seen a problem that I felt was the result of feeding Mazuri to tortoises, I have still adjusted my use of the product. I only offer regular Mazuri about once a week, to most of my species, and I now only use the LS type for feeding giants.

It is my "feeling" that the best diet to offer your tortoises is real actual food, and not commercial prepared pellets. I do, however, think there is benefit to offering a balanced pellet periodically in order to ensure there are no nutrient deficiencies that could develop over time. I also like them to know and be used to eating Mazuri pellets for those times when we run out of "real" food and just need something to feed the torts for a day. This can come in very handy in a natural disaster like our CA wildfires that our government mismanagement brings us annually now, or in harsh winter snow storms that happen in some areas of our country where people get snowed in for days on end and can't get to a store.

In summary:
1. Do we "need" to feed them Mazuri? No. They can live without it.
2. Is there benefit to feeding them Mazuri? Yes, I think there is.
3. Is everyday too much? Yes, I think it is, but I have no science to back that up currently, and I'm not willing to do such an experiment with any of my animals because of those beliefs. In my estimation, once or twice a week is a good moderate way to go, where the tortoise gets the benefits of such a food, but isn't excluded from the benefits of other more natural foods.
4. Using it every day while they are also fed other things and grazing simply muddies these waters even more. I don't think this practice will kill your tortoises anytime soon. I suspect that there might be some long term problems from feeding loads of Mazuri every single day, but how would we even measure that when they are also grazing? I would not recommend feeding Mazuri every day, but I also cannot point to a study that shows what will or won't happen if a person does. You are in uncharted waters my friend. Let us know what you discover in your travels to the outer limits of tortoise knowledge.

 

[EppsDynasty]

First, are we talking about original recipe 5M21, or the newer LS type?

There is no definitive answer to this because no one I know of has done what you are doing. We did have that one very unfriendly member many years ago that said briefly and cryptically that he was doing some sort of experiment with this, but we never heard any details or saw any results.

What you will get is opinions and feelings, much like this from me:
I do think Mazuri 5M21 is a good supplemental food and I've been using it that way for decades. I've had two very knowledgeable people tell me they don't like the corn component and one of those people, plus a third person have mentioned reservations about the molasses content. These aren't rank beginners. These are some smart people. While I've not ever seen a problem that I felt was the result of feeding Mazuri to tortoises, I have still adjusted my use of the product. I only offer regular Mazuri about once a week, to most of my species, and I now only use the LS type for feeding giants.

It is my "feeling" that the best diet to offer your tortoises is real actual food, and not commercial prepared pellets. I do, however, think there is benefit to offering a balanced pellet periodically in order to ensure there are no nutrient deficiencies that could develop over time. I also like them to know and be used to eating Mazuri pellets for those times when we run out of "real" food and just need something to feed the torts for a day. This can come in very handy in a natural disaster like our CA wildfires that our government mismanagement brings us annually now, or in harsh winter snow storms that happen in some areas of our country where people get snowed in for days on end and can't get to a store.

In summary:
1. Do we "need" to feed them Mazuri? No. They can live without it.
2. Is there benefit to feeding them Mazuri? Yes, I think there is.
3. Is everyday too much? Yes, I think it is, but I have no science to back that up currently, and I'm not willing to do such an experiment with any of my animals because of those beliefs. In my estimation, once or twice a week is a good moderate way to go, where the tortoise gets the benefits of such a food, but isn't excluded from the benefits of other more natural foods.
4. Using it every day while they are also fed other things and grazing simply muddies these waters even more. I don't think this practice will kill your tortoises anytime soon. I suspect that there might be some long term problems from feeding loads of Mazuri every single day, but how would we even measure that when they are also grazing? I would not recommend feeding Mazuri every day, but I also cannot point to a study that shows what will or won't happen if a person does. You are in uncharted waters my friend. Let us know what you discover in your travels to the outer limits of tortoise knowledge.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I'M HERE ........
An honest answer full of actual facts from an intelligent person but not afraid to say I'm not sure. Thank you. I use the original feed 5M21.
P.S. I'm not happy about the corn base but think that there are way smarter people than me working for Mazuri.

 

[Tom]

P.S. I'm not happy about the corn base but think that there are way smarter people than me working for Mazuri.

Don't be so sure... Sometimes decisions like that are market driven, as in, "What is the cheapest most easily available ingredient we can use here?" As opposed to: "What is the BEST ingredient we can use here and who cares about the cost or availability?"

Ironically, Mazuri was developed decades ago as an economical feed for Galapagos tortoises in zoos. Its a Galapagos tort keeper that told me they don't like the corn base for the 5M21 for feeding giants.

 

[Yvonne G]

I realize dogs and tortoises are different, but if I reject a dog food because it contains corn, makes me wonder why I should feed my tortoise a food containing corn. I also have to wonder if delicious corn is so awful for dogs, why is it ok for ME to eat it?

 

[Tom]

I realize dogs and tortoises are different, but if I reject a dog food because it contains corn, makes me wonder why I should feed my tortoise a food containing corn. I also have to wonder if delicious corn is so awful for dogs, why is it ok for ME to eat it?

Many current nutritionists will tell you that corn is NOT good for you or your dog. Any subject nowadays seems to have evidence supporting both sides.

The info I was given was that gut fermentation with the slow transit time and large volume of product consumed by the giants could be a problem. The person telling me felt it best to avoid this possibility, even though there is no concrete, peer reviewed, scientific evidence to show exactly what happens with large amounts of corn in the GI tract of a giant tortoise. Sometimes we have to just go with our gut and what seems most sensible.

For the record, I don't have an issue with corn or grain in dog food, or in my own diet. Our GI tracts move it along quite a bit faster than the GI tract of a large tortoise.

 

[EppsDynasty]

I realize dogs and tortoises are different, but if I reject a dog food because it contains corn, makes me wonder why I should feed my tortoise a food containing corn. I also have to wonder if delicious corn is so awful for dogs, why is it ok for ME to eat it?

I am Exactly the same ... No corn for the dog ... This is my thought on it "If a dog was running through a corn field would it start to eat ears of corn?" I don't think so.

Many current nutritionists will tell you that corn is NOT good for you or your dog. Any subject nowadays seems to have evidence supporting both sides.

The info I was given was that gut fermentation with the slow transit time and large volume of product consumed by the giants could be a problem. The person telling me felt it best to avoid this possibility, even though there is no concrete, peer reviewed, scientific evidence to show exactly what happens with large amounts of corn in the GI tract of a giant tortoise. Sometimes we have to just go with our gut and what seems most sensible.

For the record, I don't have an issue with corn or grain in dog food, or in my own diet. Our GI tracts move it along quite a bit faster than the GI tract of a large tortoise.

Sounds gross but look at YOUR poop after eating corn, it's in there un digested. I have been told by many nutritionist and Dr.'s not to eat corn. I have a paralyzed stomach, it took over 10 years of test and Dr.'s to figure it out. (Yvonne this is what was wrong with me when we lived by you). I lost 100 lbs in 9 months and they couldn't figure it out. For this reason I've seen some of the supposed best nutritionist in the state. EVERY one of them said NO to corn.
When I read the ingredients of Mazuri 5m21 I was shocked to see corn. I went back and forth on if we should even use it. The fact of the Zoo was what pushed us over the edge and we went ahead and ordered it. I'm guessing that if it was BAD someone here would have said something. Maybe even a Zoo doc might of said something. We want the best for our guys and gals just as you do so this is why I posed the question. Looks and sound like it's going to need some further investigation and thought.

 

[Tom]

I am Exactly the same ... No corn for the dog ... This is my thought on it "If a dog was running through a corn field would it start to eat ears of corn?" I don't think so.

Sounds gross but look at YOUR poop after eating corn, it's in there un digested. I have been told by many nutritionist and Dr.'s not to eat corn. I have a paralyzed stomach, it took over 10 years of test and Dr.'s to figure it out. (Yvonne this is what was wrong with me when we lived by you). I lost 100 lbs in 9 months and they couldn't figure it out. For this reason I've seen some of the supposed best nutritionist in the state. EVERY one of them said NO to corn.
When I read the ingredients of Mazuri 5m21 I was shocked to see corn. I went back and forth on if we should even use it. The fact of the Zoo was what pushed us over the edge and we went ahead and ordered it. I'm guessing that if it was BAD someone here would have said something. Maybe even a Zoo doc might of said something. We want the best for our guys and gals just as you do so this is why I posed the question. Looks and sound like it's going to need some further investigation and thought.

If you go by the ingredients list, you will not want to use Mazuri. All that "stuff" serves as a delivery vehicle for balanced nutrition and all the good stuff.

The fact is that we have more than three decades of first hand experience with this product. The rules that I have seen have been 100% positive. I have yet to see anyone anywhere claim to have a nutrition based issue due to feeding this product to their tortoise on a regular basis for years or decades. Maybe this would be different if someone was feeding nothing but Mazuri all day every day and nothing else? I don't know. I do know that when used as a supplemental food it delivers good results. I suspect that my exceptionally high hatch rates (near 100%) in all of my platynota clutches, may be due in part to this food included in their diet around once a week. Due to the success I'm having, I'm not willing to "mess around" to find out if this is a factor or not.

This is my thought on it "If a dog was running through a corn field would it start to eat ears of corn?" I don't think so.

This is just silly. I can tell you with 100% certainty that at least some dogs, some of the time, if allowed, will grab and eat ears of corn. Local coyotes and other wild life do too. Of course not if the dog is on a walk with you and distracted by the interaction and excitement of being out with its person.

If you went to a corn field with ripe corn, built a 10x10 foot dog kennel, put a dog in there and walk away, how long do you think it would take for that dog to start eating the corn? Not long at all.

 

[EppsDynasty]

If you go by the ingredients list, you will not want to use Mazuri. All that "stuff" serves as a delivery vehicle for balanced nutrition and all the good stuff.

The fact is that we have more than three decades of first hand experience with this product. The rules that I have seen have been 100% positive. I have yet to see anyone anywhere claim to have a nutrition based issue due to feeding this product to their tortoise on a regular basis for years or decades. Maybe this would be different if someone was feeding nothing but Mazuri all day every day and nothing else? I don't know. I do know that when used as a supplemental food it delivers good results. I suspect that my exceptionally high hatch rates (near 100%) in all of my platynota clutches, may be due in part to this food included in their diet around once a week. Due to the success I'm having, I'm not willing to "mess around" to find out if this is a factor or not.


This is just silly. I can tell you with 100% certainty that at least some dogs, some of the time, if allowed, will grab and eat ears of corn. Local coyotes and other wild life do too. Of course not if the dog is on a walk with you and distracted by the interaction and excitement of being out with its person.

If you went to a corn field with ripe corn, built a 10x10 foot dog kennel, put a dog in there and walk away, how long do you think it would take for that dog to start eating the corn? Not long at all.

Good point, I have seen my dog before eat corn off a plate, just never thought they would eat it off the plant.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Years ago I advised not to feed Mazuri (original) because the nuggets were covered with molasses and a tort would get 'addicted' to that sweet taste. My opinion or experience wasn't written down or anything formal...but...I stopped feeding Mazuri because I do believe in new keepers that situation causes eating disorders...addicted to molasses and won't eat anything else. I thought at the time, I had a different Sulcata, and I thought too much Mazuri can create this...
Mary was already pyramided when I got her...I'm just using her pyramids as an example of what I mean...So I'd post against Mazuri and TFO became FB for a while. The disagreements

 

[EppsDynasty]

Years ago I advised not to feed Mazuri (original) because the nuggets were covered with molasses and a tort would get 'addicted' to that sweet taste. My opinion or experience wasn't written down or anything formal...but...I stopped feeding Mazuri because I do believe in new keepers that situation causes eating disorders...addicted to molasses and won't eat anything else. I thought at the time, I had a different Sulcata, and I thought too much Mazuri can create this...View attachment 363856
Mary was already pyramided when I got her...I'm just using her pyramids as an example of what I mean...So I'd post against Mazuri and TFO became FB for a while. The disagreements

I have to admit I've not had the FB experience here yet. I am not a fan of FB.

 

[EppsDynasty]

FaceBook is the Junior High bathroom wall. Just as stupid and just as informative.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I have to admit I've not had the FB experience here yet. I am not a fan of FB.

Exactly my point...lol as well. But my avatar says I joined in 2018, when I actually joined 2008. And TFO was small and at times we fought...at times if it wasn't for the Nazi moderator. I would been kicked off many times and over the years we've (me) mellowed so when I say FB, I mean the bad way...
my cat drinks outa the toilet like a dog...

 

[wellington]

Good point, I have seen my dog before eat corn off a plate, just never thought they would eat it off the plant.

Not likely they would off the stalk, unless starving, and nothing else available they may, slight may. Never heard a farmer complain about coyotes, wolves or dogs eating their corn. Any that has fallen they may eat.
Corn is just a filler. It doesn't break down in our guts, as you pointed out lol. I love corn, so I eat it. I do not feed it to my dogs. It's not that it's a bad filler, fed sparingly it should be okay. The other benefits of Mazuri to me out weighs the corn.

 

[jaizei]

The outer part isn't digested because it's cellulose, but what's inside is digested.

Herbivorous animals can digest cellulose, so it's digestibility in humans matters less.

The corn in mazuri is listed as 'ground corn', so the above matters even less.

Corn is calories aka energy, the primary purpose of food; it's hardly a filler.

 

[Tom]

The outer part isn't digested because it's cellulose, but what's inside is digested.

Herbivorous animals can digest cellulose, so it's digestibility in humans matters less.

The corn in mazuri is listed as 'ground corn', so the above matters even less.

Corn is calories aka energy, the primary purpose of food; it's hardly a filler.

Thank you for this info.

What are your thoughts on large amounts of ground corn (Mazuri) fermenting in the gut of giant tortoises? Think that is a possibility?

 

[EppsDynasty]

Not likely they would off the stalk, unless starving, and nothing else available they may, slight may. Never heard a farmer complain about coyotes, wolves or dogs eating their corn. Any that has fallen they may eat.
Corn is just a filler. It doesn't break down in our guts, as you pointed out lol. I love corn, so I eat it. I do not feed it to my dogs. It's not that it's a bad filler, fed sparingly it should be okay. The other benefits of Mazuri to me out weighs the corn.

I didn't think they would eat it off the plant but do think they'll eat it.

 

[EppsDynasty]

@wellington
@jaizei
@Tom
Curious to see what you all think ... If a dog would eat wheat if it wasn't in their food. If a dog was running through a field of wheat would it eat?