Sulcata not being correctly cared for...

[CharlieM]

Someone I know sent me this photo of their friend's tortoise.
She wrote:
Chompers is a giant African tortoise. He looks like he's made of wood. Very healthy... Has outdoor and indoor accommodations

 

[CharlieM]

I sent her this photo as a comparison and a link to sulcata care and pyramiding. Hope they get it.

 

[teresaf]

Nothing you can do about the pyramiding now, it's too late. I wonder if he was raised in the north? That type damage due to pyramiding and Metabolic Bone diseases are usually due to being kept to dry inside the house with little real sunlight. Lack of calcium and D3 contribute too. He's obviously getting sun now. And Florida is humid and hopefully he has a water source. you really can't tell from that picture that he's not being taken care of. You can only see that he wasn't taken care of properly in the past...
I have a rescue leopard that's not quite as pyramided but still looks bad. I hate to think that people think I did that to him...

 

[CharlieM]

Nothing you can do about the pyramiding now, it's too late. I wonder if he was raised in the north? That type damage due to pyramiding and Metabolic Bone diseases are usually due to being kept to dry inside the house with little real sunlight. Lack of calcium and D3 contribute too. He's obviously getting sun now. And Florida is humid and hopefully he has a water source. you really can't tell from that picture that he's not being taken care of. You can only see that he wasn't taken care of properly in the past...
I have a rescue leopard that's not quite as pyramided but still looks bad. I hate to think that people think I did that to him...

He's not in Florida. He's up north.

 

[MPRC]

I hate to think that people think I did that to him...

I always worry that when showing off my herd of redfoots. 4 of the 6 are a mess due to improper care before hey came to me.

 

[teresaf]

He's not in Florida. He's up north.

Well. That explains a lot. It's incredibly hard to raise a tortoise in the North. They can't get them outside because it's too cold and they'll die or get a respiratory infection. And lighting is really difficult for a lot of people to understand. Luckily the tortoises I had in the north didn't require special lighting.

 

[teresaf]

I always worry that when showing off my herd of redfoots. 4 of the 6 are a mess due to improper care before hey came to me.

I KNOOOW! RIGHT?

 

[MPRC]

I KNOOOW! RIGHT?

Vern is a mess:

 

[wellington]

I personally don't think it has to do with us in the north. Yes, I did take offense a bit. It has to do with the correct info not being out there way back when that guy was first hatched and raised. Many experienced old (I don't mean age) timers on this forum has raised some pretty bad looking torts compared to what is being raised now. The lack of correct info back before this forum and the shared knowledge of its experienced members is what is helping all the new to tort members do it right. Not because it was raised in the North. I have seen some bad ones raised right in Florida where humidity and UVB is given year round for free.

 

[wellington]

Well. That explains a lot. It's incredibly hard to raise a tortoise in the North. They can't get them outside because it's too cold and they'll die or get a respiratory infection. And lighting is really difficult for a lot of people to understand. Luckily the tortoises I had in the north didn't require special lighting.

Not just in the north are they raised badly. It's because the correct info wasn't there back when this guy was hatched and raised.

 

[wellington]

The north aren't stupid people btw. With the right info, we understand lighting just like anyone else. We do have warm summer months and a lot of warm spring and fall days torts can enjoy the sun.

 

[Tom]

@CharlieM
I agree that this tortoise might be getting great care now and that what we are seeing is the result of previous poor care. We'd need more info to make that call, if a call was going to be made.

I agree with @wellington that this phenomenon is not limited to any geographical area. This can happen to tortoises raised incorrectly anywhere in the world, and sadly, it does happen here in sunny SoCal, in FL, and in AZ too.

I do see the point that @teresaf is making that due to the cold weather, this is more likely to happen in the North where its harder for most of the year to get a tortoise out in the sun. When I was a kid in sunny Southern CA, I would take my box turtle out to the front yard for some run-around time on a whim, when the mood struck me. I had no idea about UV, MBD, or D3 back in 1979. I'm quite certain that Tommy Turtle did not develop MBD or any weird growth issues because of these forays to the great outdoors that I offered year round on sunny days. It should also not be overlooked that the tortoise in question in this thread is actually in the north. Knowing Teresa, I'm certain no offense was intended and that she was just sharing her repeated observations here.

 

[wellington]

@CharlieM
I agree that this tortoise might be getting great care now and that what we are seeing is the result of previous poor care. We'd need more info to make that call, if a call was going to be made.

I agree with @wellington that this phenomenon is not limited to any geographical area. This can happen to tortoises raised incorrectly anywhere in the world, and sadly, it does happen here in sunny SoCal, in FL, and in AZ too.

I do see the point that @teresaf is making that due to the cold weather, this is more likely to happen in the North where its harder for most of the year to get a tortoise out in the sun. When I was a kid in sunny Southern CA, I would take my box turtle out to the front yard for some run-around time on a whim, when the mood struck me. I had no idea about UV, MBD, or D3 back in 1979. I'm quite certain that Tommy Turtle did not develop MBD or any weird growth issues because of these forays to the great outdoors that I offered year round on sunny days. It should also not be overlooked that the tortoise in question in this thread is actually in the north. Knowing Teresa, I'm certain no offense was intended and that she was just sharing her repeated observations here.

We have box Turtles too in the wild. No MBD or pyramiding on them. I don't think it has anything to do with where you live. It has to do with proper lighting, heat and humidity for where one lives and houses the tort. An awful lot of pyramided torts come from sunny AZ, and sunny and humid FL. If your raising a tort inside and you live in humid Florida, how much is that humidity outside really helping a tort being raised its first few years inside?
It's always recommended to raise hatchlings inside for at least the first two years. Inside is using all artificial heat and UVB, which makes us all in the same boat no matter where we live.
I don't think anything intentional was said. However, it is a bit offensive when good and bad growth has nothing in my opinion to do with our location.

 

[Tom]

We have box Turtles too in the wild. No MBD or pyramiding on them. I don't think it has anything to do with where you live. It has to do with proper lighting, heat and humidity for where one lives and houses the tort. An awful lot of pyramided torts come from sunny AZ, and sunny and humid FL. If your raising a tort inside and you live in humid Florida, how much is that humidity outside really helping a tort being raised its first few years inside?
It's always recommended to raise hatchlings inside for at least the first two years. Inside is using all artificial heat and UVB, which makes us all in the same boat no matter where we live.
I don't think anything intentional was said. However, it is a bit offensive when good and bad growth has nothing in my opinion to do with our location.

It does have something to do with location for an average pet owner simply because someone in a warm sunny climate will have year round opportunity to get real sunshine. Yes, you and I both know that we need the correct lighting and heating, but your average pet store customer might not understand these concepts as well. The average pet store customer in Phoenix is more likely to get their tortoise outside for some sunshine in January than your average pet store customer in Minneapolis. Agreed? It can certainly be done the wrong way, or the right way, in both places, but we are just talking about probabilities related to each person's climate here. An ill-informed (ignorant) tortoise keeper in the south has a better chance of avoiding these issues, than an ill-informed tortoise keeper in the north. My own experience as a child illustrates this point. If I'd lived in North Dakota instead of Southern CA, my turtle would not have seen the sun from about September through May or June. As I was a young and ignorant turtle keeper, my location played a large role in the health and well being of my turtle.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think you're taking offense where none was intended, Barb.

 

[wellington]

I think you're taking offense where none was intended, Barb.

I don't think it was intended. It's just plain out wrong.

 

[wellington]

It does have something to do with location for an average pet owner simply because someone in a warm sunny climate will have year round opportunity to get real sunshine. Yes, you and I both know that we need the correct lighting and heating, but your average pet store customer might not understand these concepts as well. The average pet store customer in Phoenix is more likely to get their tortoise outside for some sunshine in January than your average pet store customer in Minneapolis. Agreed? It can certainly be done the wrong way, or the right way, in both places, but we are just talking about probabilities related to each person's climate here. An ill-informed (ignorant) tortoise keeper in the south has a better chance of avoiding these issues, than an ill-informed tortoise keeper in the north. My own experience as a child illustrates this point. If I'd lived in North Dakota instead of Southern CA, my turtle would not have seen the sun from about September through May or June. As I was a young and ignorant turtle keeper, my location played a large role in the health and well being of my turtle.

Ignorance,bad info, poor care, etc, has no boundaries. But to assume a tortoise is from the north due to its pyramiding and or MBD is wrong. I only agree some states have more sun. Not healthier torts because they have more sun.

 

[wellington]

I don't think it was intended. It's just plain out wrong.

Example. When I was into dog breeding and showing. The word around the dog people up here in the north, was to be very cautious if buying a dog from anyone in the south. They are poor breeders, only care about the money and most were puppy mills. Now, most southerns would be offended by that statement, at least in the dog world. That statement, mind set, is ignorant and offensive.

 

[teresaf]

The north aren't stupid people btw. With the right info, we understand lighting just like anyone else. We do have warm summer months and a lot of warm spring and fall days torts can enjoy the sun.

Not just in the north are they raised badly. It's because the correct info wasn't there back when this guy was hatched and raised.

Until recently I WAS a northerner(Dayton Ohio)for 40 years and I know the difficulties of getting a tortoise out into the sun every day or once or twice a week throughout the year and getting the proper light setup.
I'm one of the many people that you hear of on this forum that have trouble figuring out which lights are needed, at what height, how long, how to hook up to timers, ect.... I consider myself far from stupid (college educated)and I feel a little disappointed that you would think that I would state to the world that I believe Northerners are stupid. I've always appreciated all your input and help with raising my tortoises and I hope you believe me when I say that I meant that people in the South can take their tortoises outside for 5 or 10 minutes everyday or every couple days(and often do) throughout the year and they get the sunlight that they need for the week so they really don't need the lights inside the house hooked up. People in the north cannot do that in the winter and therefore the lights are NEEDED. If it wasn't for this forum alot of us turtle/tortoise owners wouldn't even know that they need special lighting. That includes people in the South AND in the North.
The simple fact that I was correct that the tortoise was raised in the North wasn't just pure luck. Yes there are tortoises with MBD and pyramiding in the south as well as the north but I believe that the majority of them have been raised in the North. Especially some of the most extreme cases.
I'm sorry if you disagree but all you have to do is ask around to the people who have tortoises with deformed shells and ask where they were raised and you'll see that I'm right. I noticed this correlation because I was from the north and having problems getting my leopard the sun he needed. I'm sorry if I wasn't articulate enough to express this View in a way that didn't insult us Northerners.
By the way, I would be insulted also if somebody said to watch out for southerners who breed dogs too since I breed bulldogs. I breed them here and I bred them in the north and my methods have not changed. That would be an insult to Southerners. I don't think it's quite the same thing though. I wasn't insulting Southerners because they're incapable of understanding how lights work. I wasn't insulting anyone. I merely meant that since more people in the north need lighting then it stands to reason that more people in the north (than the south)would have problems getting that lighting to their tortoises causing more MBD.

 

[teresaf]

Vern is a mess:

Vern is awesome!