Slow Growth in the Wild

[Nickypoo]

@Tom @Will and any others that might have thoughts.

I was watching a YouTube video of a guide on a South African animal reserve encounter a Leopard tortoise. The tortoise looked to be about 6 inches in length and the guide picks the Leo up and says, "This one is about 10 years". Granted this guys says a few things that indicate his knowledge of torts might not be PHD level ;-) and this tort could in fact be 2-3 years old but this tort was the size of most of the Leos on this forum that are 2 years old. My hunch is that many torts in the wild grow much slower, which contributes to their nice even growth. Thoughts?

 

[rearlpettway]

@Tom @Will and any others that might have thoughts.

I was watching a YouTube video of a guide on a South African animal reserve encounter a Leopard tortoise. The tortoise looked to be about 6 inches in length and the guide picks the Leo up and says, "This one is about 10 years". Granted this guys says a few things that indicate his knowledge of torts might not be PHD level ;-) and this tort could in fact be 2-3 years old but this tort was the size of most of the Leos on this forum that are 2 years old. My hunch is that many torts in the wild grow much slower, which contributes to their nice even growth. Thoughts?

I agree with you, that tortoises in the wild grow slower than captive tortoises. I would assume that they don't eat as much as tortoises in captivity.

 

[Tom]

Good topic for discussion. I'll share my many thoughts on the matter:

I'm not able to watch the video, but this slow growth idea has been debunked MANY times over the years. Here on this forum are hundreds of perfectly smooth tortoises whose growth rates would be considered "fast" by those who advocate for this slow growth theory. Mine included.

I did an experiment with 12 clutch mate sulcatas a few years ago. I was testing the theory that "tortoises do 'better' outside". 6 of them were primarily inside in an enclosure that mimicked the monsoon conditions that they hatch into in the wild. Hot and humid. This group got one or two hours of sunshine in an outdoor enclosure similar to the other group's outdoor enclosure for about 5 days a week and then they got soaked on the way back in. The second group of 6 was kept outdoors in a well planted, and well shaded due to all the plant growth, well watered, enclosure with damp earth all day long, weather permitting, and they were brought back into to a "monsoon" style enclosure to sleep every night. The outdoor group was also soaked daily right along side the indoor group. Each group was fed the same quantity of weedy, grassy foods out of the same food collection/mixing bucket. The outdoor group also had access to all the plants that were growing in their enclosure, so they actually got more food than the indoor group. During and after the 6 month trial, the indoor group grew 2 or 3 times the speed of the outdoor group. When the outdoor ones were all 70-100 grams, the indoor ones were 200-300 grams. When the outdoor ones were around 200 grams, the indoor ones were all 600-700 grams. My conclusion was that: In fact, babies in the right conditions, actually do "better" indoors. Another interesting "side finding" to my experiment was that the outdoor group showed obvious and significant pyramiding, while the much faster growing indoor group were all perfectly smooth.

Wild tortoises are subject to the whims of mother nature and hardships of living out in the world. Drought, starvation, parasitization internally and externally, predation, weather extremes, the stress of territorial defense and conspecific aggression, etc… In short, "the wild" is less than "ideal" in any way you care to measure it. Estimates are between 300 and 1000 babies die for every one that makes it to maturity. It should be no surprise to anyone that they grow slower in the wild, but is that "good" for them? Or is it just what happens when an animal has no other choice but to try to survive in a hostile world? Should we intentionally inflict the hardships of the wild upon our captive tortoises to slow down their growth?

Now I must tell you the story of how I started with sulcatas. I started with my first sulcata in the early 90's. I had been raising green iguanas, so I was well versed with the herbivore nutrition of the day, which was grocery store greens. My first sulcata was kept on rabbit pellets with no water bowl, because supposedly this was a desert species and any hint of humidity could be deadly to them. He was fed lots of different grocery store greens and soaked once a week. He pyramided horribly and I felt like a complete failure. I had read all the books and followed all the advice to a "T", but my results were poor. After my failure to raise a smooth tortoise, I talked to many experts, breeders, vets and read more books. The consensus was that the pyramiding was caused by too much food, the wrong food, and too much protein. I was told that my mistake was too much grocery store foods and not enough dried grasses and weeds like they would find in nature. I was also told that I fed too much and that "fast unnatural growth" was the cause of my previous tortoises pyramiding. I was also told keeping them indoors and out of the "natural" sunshine was a contributor to pyramiding. So, armed with all of this new knowledge, I acquired two new babies and set out to do it "right" this time. The babies got fed nothing but grass, weeds and leaves and no grocery store food. They were fed small amounts every other day or every third day and their large 30 x 8' outdoor pen was kept clear of any weeds or grass that they might have eaten, so they didn't get "too much" food. If it was sunny and over 70 degrees (which is most of the time in my area of the world), they were outside all day every day. They grew very slowly. At 10 years old they were just over 40 pounds. And the pyramiding? It was worse than the first time around. My second failure was gut wrenching. It was demoralizing. I was done with tortoises forever, I thought. Then it occurred to me that something else had to be going on and all these "experts" were wrong.

Years, and several trips around the world later, I discovered that, in fact, they were wrong. Food and sunshine had nothing to do with pyramiding. Diet and UV certainly have something to do with raising a healthy tortoise, but they have nothing to do with raising a smooth tortoise. Now, all these years later, I don't care about growth rate. I try to grow my tortoises as healthy as I can, and I don't care if its fast or slow, by anyone's definition. I keep them healthy, feed them right, give them sunshine and exercise, keep them hydrated, and provide them with what I believe to be "optimal" conditions for the species, and they grow however fast they grow. If some people label that "fast", fine with me. As long as they are healthy and smooth, I'm happy with my results.

 

[Neal]

Even with a PHD in Tortology the 10 year age guess is just a guess. It could be 2 years old, it could be 15. With all the variations in leopard tortoises that we've discussed extensively on the forum, there is just no way to provide an accurate age guess of a wild tortoise in my opinion. Then again, maybe the guy has lived his whole life in the area and knows the tortoises in his locality very well.

My experience has been that growth rates are not an indication of health good or bad. Note that this excludes stunted tortoises with a 0 growth rate, which likely indicates some sort of health problem. A couple of my largest tortoises were also the slowest growers I have had. They produce good strong hatchlings and have all the outward appearances of good health. I've made the similar observations over the years, but have never seen any consistency where I could conclude fast growth = good health, slow growth = bad health or vice versa.

Same with pyramiding, there does not seem to be any direct evidence that growth rates factor into how much a tortoise will pyramid. That said, my slower growers are usually smoother than the faster ones, but I believe that is incidental at this point. More testing is needed.

 

[Nickypoo]

Good topic for discussion. I'll share my many thoughts on the matter:

I'm not able to watch the video, but this slow growth idea has been debunked MANY times over the years. Here on this forum are hundreds of perfectly smooth tortoises whose growth rates would be considered "fast" by those who advocate for this slow growth theory. Mine included.

I did an experiment with 12 clutch mate sulcatas a few years ago. I was testing the theory that "tortoises do 'better' outside". 6 of them were primarily inside in an enclosure that mimicked the monsoon conditions that they hatch into in the wild. Hot and humid. This group got one or two hours of sunshine in an outdoor enclosure similar to the other group's outdoor enclosure for about 5 days a week and then they got soaked on the way back in. The second group of 6 was kept outdoors in a well planted, and well shaded due to all the plant growth, well watered, enclosure with damp earth all day long, weather permitting, and they were brought back into to a "monsoon" style enclosure to sleep every night. The outdoor group was also soaked daily right along side the indoor group. Each group was fed the same quantity of weedy, grassy foods out of the same food collection/mixing bucket. The outdoor group also had access to all the plants that were growing in their enclosure, so they actually got more food than the indoor group. During and after the 6 month trial, the indoor group grew 2 or 3 times the speed of the outdoor group. When the outdoor ones were all 70-100 grams, the indoor ones were 200-300 grams. When the outdoor ones were around 200 grams, the indoor ones were all 600-700 grams. My conclusion was that: In fact, babies in the right conditions, actually do "better" indoors. Another interesting "side finding" to my experiment was that the outdoor group showed obvious and significant pyramiding, while the much faster growing indoor group were all perfectly smooth.

Wild tortoises are subject to the whims of mother nature and hardships of living out in the world. Drought, starvation, parasitization internally and externally, predation, weather extremes, the stress of territorial defense and conspecific aggression, etc… In short, "the wild" is less than "ideal" in any way you care to measure it. Estimates are between 300 and 1000 babies die for every one that makes it to maturity. It should be no surprise to anyone that they grow slower in the wild, but is that "good" for them? Or is it just what happens when an animal has no other choice but to try to survive in a hostile world? Should we intentionally inflict the hardships of the wild upon our captive tortoises to slow down their growth?

Now I must tell you the story of how I started with sulcatas. I started with my first sulcata in the early 90's. I had been raising green iguanas, so I was well versed with the herbivore nutrition of the day, which was grocery store greens. My first sulcata was kept on rabbit pellets with no water bowl, because supposedly this was a desert species and any hint of humidity could be deadly to them. He was fed lots of different grocery store greens and soaked once a week. He pyramided horribly and I felt like a complete failure. I had read all the books and followed all the advice to a "T", but my results were poor. After my failure to raise a smooth tortoise, I talked to many experts, breeders, vets and read more books. The consensus was that the pyramiding was caused by too much food, the wrong food, and too much protein. I was told that my mistake was too much grocery store foods and not enough dried grasses and weeds like they would find in nature. I was also told that I fed too much and that "fast unnatural growth" was the cause of my previous tortoises pyramiding. I was also told keeping them indoors and out of the "natural" sunshine was a contributor to pyramiding. So, armed with all of this new knowledge, I acquired two new babies and set out to do it "right" this time. The babies got fed nothing but grass, weeds and leaves and no grocery store food. They were fed small amounts every other day or every third day and their large 30 x 8' outdoor pen was kept clear of any weeds or grass that they might have eaten, so they didn't get "too much" food. If it was sunny and over 70 degrees (which is most of the time in my area of the world), they were outside all day every day. They grew very slowly. At 10 years old they were just over 40 pounds. And the pyramiding? It was worse than the first time around. My second failure was gut wrenching. It was demoralizing. I was done with tortoises forever, I thought. Then it occurred to me that something else had to be going on and all these "experts" were wrong.

Years, and several trips around the world later, I discovered that, in fact, they were wrong. Food and sunshine had nothing to do with pyramiding. Diet and UV certainly have something to do with raising a healthy tortoise, but they have nothing to do with raising a smooth tortoise. Now, all these years later, I don't care about growth rate. I try to grow my tortoises as healthy as I can, and I don't care if its fast or slow, by anyone's definition. I keep them healthy, feed them right, give them sunshine and exercise, keep them hydrated, and provide them with what I believe to be "optimal" conditions for the species, and they grow however fast they grow. If some people label that "fast", fine with me. As long as they are healthy and smooth, I'm happy with my results.

This is awesome Tom. I actually watched a presentation you gave (a recording on youtube) where you shared some of your research and talked about the Sulcata you found in the south in a pet store that was perfectly smooth and how that lead you to your current methods. It was a great presentation.

So besides Pyramiding, do you see issues with rapid growth? I bought a leopard from Kenan Harkin in Florida and he insisted I only feed it every other day. I've been paranoid ever since. The one thing I notice when I feed every other day is that the Leo seems to be much more excited to eat than on weeks I feed him daily. Having said that, my PP is growing much slower than many Babcocki I've seen on this forum. He was 30 grams when I picked him up as a hatch-ling 11 months ago and in now only 100g. Smooth as can be and very active, just a bit small.

One other thing I've noticed is that my most active Leo is also my smallest. As if his activity robs him of his growth. I have a 3 by 6 foot enclosure and I've recorded him doing 100+ laps in a day. Perhaps the Wild torts grow slower because of increased activity levels?

 

[Tom]

This is awesome Tom. I actually watched a presentation you gave (a recording on youtube) where you shared some of your research and talked about the Sulcata you found in the south in a pet store that was perfectly smooth and how that lead you to your current methods. It was a great presentation.

So besides Pyramiding, do you see issues with rapid growth? I bought a leopard from Kenan Harkin in Florida and he insisted I only feed it every other day. I've been paranoid ever since. The one thing I notice when I feed every other day is that the Leo seems to be much more excited to eat than on weeks I feed him daily. Having said that, my PP is growing much slower than many Babcocki I've seen on this forum. He was 30 grams when I picked him up as a hatch-ling 11 months ago and in now only 100g. Smooth as can be and very active, just a bit small.

One other thing I've noticed is that my most active Leo is also my smallest. As if his activity robs him of his growth. I have a 3 by 6 foot enclosure and I've recorded him doing 100+ laps in a day. Perhaps the Wild torts grow slower because of increased activity levels?

Kenan is not the guy to take advice from…

I don't know what "rapid" grow is. I see a "normal" growth rate when tortoises are fed right, housed correctly and kept hydrated. I see a much slower growth rate when they are house too dry, dehydrated and not fed correctly or fed enough. I have seen no health problems with tortoises that grew faster than "normal", but were cared for properly and kept well hydrated.

Most people that are currently breeding or selling the PP start them way too dry, or house the babies outside all the time, like in my sulcata experiment. This retards their growth. I don't call it slow growth, I call it stunted growth. Where did you get yours? Was it raised outdoors in the AZ sunshine?

 

[Nickypoo]

Even with a PHD in Tortology the 10 year age guess is just a guess. It could be 2 years old, it could be 15. With all the variations in leopard tortoises that we've discussed extensively on the forum, there is just no way to provide an accurate age guess of a wild tortoise in my opinion. Then again, maybe the guy has lived his whole life in the area and knows the tortoises in his locality very well.

My experience has been that growth rates are not an indication of health good or bad. Note that this excludes stunted tortoises with a 0 growth rate, which likely indicates some sort of health problem. A couple of my largest tortoises were also the slowest growers I have had. They produce good strong hatchlings and have all the outward appearances of good health. I've made the similar observations over the years, but have never seen any consistency where I could conclude fast growth = good health, slow growth = bad health or vice versa.

Same with pyramiding, there does not seem to be any direct evidence that growth rates factor into how much a tortoise will pyramid. That said, my slower growers are usually smoother than the faster ones, but I believe that is incidental at this point. More testing is needed.

Thanks Neal, I wish I could fast forward and gain some more experience. Trying to make up for lost time by reading. I think I read every study you posted in the research section of the Leopard thread. I appreciate you guys and your contributions.

 

[Nickypoo]

Kenan is not the guy to take advice from…

I don't know what "rapid" grow is. I see a "normal" growth rate when tortoises are fed right, housed correctly and kept hydrated. I see a much slower growth rate when they are house too dry, dehydrated and not fed correctly or fed enough. I have seen no health problems with tortoises that grew faster than "normal", but were cared for properly and kept well hydrated.

Most people that are currently breeding or selling the PP start them way too dry, or house the babies outside all the time, like in my sulcata experiment. This retards their growth. I don't call it slow growth, I call it stunted growth. Where did you get yours? Was it raised outdoors in the AZ sunshine?

I actually bought him from Chris at Black Pearl Reptiles in Cali. I worry that I didn't have him as warm as I needed to from the start. I bumped his temps to 82 ambient and he's been growing very steady since. I have always had him wet and humid. I live in Utah, sunshine is good in the Summer but I have to go all indoors for a good 7 months.

 

[cmacusa3]

This garbage about telling people to feed tortoises every other day is ridiculous. Why don't they try eating every other day and see if they stay healthy. They graze and eat all they can find in the wild. In that video it looks like that tort has plenty to eat.
I have 2 very smooth September hatched PP's that are over 100 grams each. I see nothing wrong with fast growth.

 

[Nickypoo]

This garbage about telling people to feed tortoises every other day is ridiculous. Why don't they try eating every other day and see if they stay healthy. They graze and eat all they can find in the wild. In that video it looks like that tort has plenty to eat.
I have 2 very smooth September hatched PP's that are over 100 grams each. I see nothing wrong with fast growth.

100! I'm jealous

 

[cmacusa3]

100! I'm jealous

Lol, I've always followed Tom's sheets. I have a 2 year old that's almost 7 pounds now and is extremely smooth too. I'm a firm believer in letting them eat.

I wonder if these people that say to feed every other day, do this with their other pets.

 

[Markw84]

...any others that might have thoughts.

My hunch is that many torts in the wild grow much slower, which contributes to their nice even growth. Thoughts?

I believe pyramiding is caused when a wider band of new keratin growth is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry out too rapidly.

In the wild a tortoise will only produce those wider bands of new growth when fresh, nutritional food is available. That is the monsoon season. While the food is available, they grow and the wet conditions they seek out allows the keratin to stay more pliable, and swell evenly top to bottom. When conditions dry out - so does the food source and nutritional value of the food. They eat much less, and grow very little if at all. They are surviving until the next growing season. There is not new bands of keratin to be exposed to the drier conditions and the extremely small amount of growth that does occur, simply creates a slight ridge we see as growth rings once it starts to grow again. They grow much slower because they do not have good nutritional food available 365 days a year. They may only actively grow 3-4 months out of the year. So we would expect them to be much slower growers, and not pyramided.

If you provide food to a "wild" tortoise outside of the natural growing seasons, it will grow, but in conditions where it will dry out too much. And... you will see some pyramiding as in assurance colonies in "native" areas, yet artificially provided food outside the growing season that is wet enough to sustain the grasses and weeds.

If a tortoise in the wild experiences a few years where conditions are not "normal" and you have sporadic rains into the dry season. They can continue to grow in drier than usual conditions. And... you will see true wild specimens with more pyramiding.

If we provide good nutritional food AND provide monsoon conditions preventing the new keratin growth to dry before it "sets", we can and will have much faster growing tortoises that still grow without pyramiding.

 

[Tom]

I actually bought him from Chris at Black Pearl Reptiles in Cali. I worry that I didn't have him as warm as I needed to from the start. I bumped his temps to 82 ambient and he's been growing very steady since. I have always had him wet and humid. I live in Utah, sunshine is good in the Summer but I have to go all indoors for a good 7 months.

Chris starts his babies well. Dehydration should not be an issue from that source.

 

[Nickypoo]

Chris starts his babies well. Dehydration should not be an issue from that source.

It's been a really good tort, other than his slower growth he is smooth, eats daily and is as hard as a rock. I take full responsability for any stunted growth. It's amazing how many times I've read your care sheet and find things I miss understood or didn't think about. In the past three months, he has gained 3-5 grams a week, I hope I have it optimal at this point.

 

[Nickypoo]

I believe pyramiding is caused when a wider band of new keratin growth is exposed to conditions that allow it to dry out too rapidly.

In the wild a tortoise will only produce those wider bands of new growth when fresh, nutritional food is available. That is the monsoon season. While the food is available, they grow and the wet conditions they seek out allows the keratin to stay more pliable, and swell evenly top to bottom. When conditions dry out - so does the food source and nutritional value of the food. They eat much less, and grow very little if at all. They are surviving until the next growing season. There is not new bands of keratin to be exposed to the drier conditions and the extremely small amount of growth that does occur, simply creates a slight ridge we see as growth rings once it starts to grow again. They grow much slower because they do not have good nutritional food available 365 days a year. They may only actively grow 3-4 months out of the year. So we would expect them to be much slower growers, and not pyramided.

So are you saying the actual shell gets saturated? Much like our finger nails get saturated in a long bath? Or is it more a product of internal hydration caused by drinking enough water?

 

[Markw84]

So are you saying the actual shell gets saturated? Much like our finger nails get saturated in a long bath? Or is it more a product of internal hydration caused by drinking enough water?

I'm believing it is external. The very new keratin of a new growth seam is more pliable and can swell with moisture. It has moisture from below on the bottom, but the top surface is exposed to drying. As new keratin is laid down, if the top dries too early, it stiffens, and forces the rest of the keratin as it's added to that new seam to be forced more downward. So, instead of forming a new seam that grows out evenly to the thickness of the scute, the bottom of the new keratin adds thickness only, since the top has hardened. Each new band lower than the previous.

 

[diamondbp]

Here are some links to photos of leopards in the wild at different sizes all displaying what I would consider "rapid" white growth. From what I've observed I'm inclined to think that the more rapid the growth the more "white" it comes in. So even in these wild specimens that I will send links on you can tell their "recent growth" rings are a truer white than the older growth. This seems to be from the growth coming in at a pace that's so fast that the previous growth hasn't yet been able to be tanned from the sun. So the "wider" the true white growth usually indicates the pace in which the growth has occurred. And you will also notice that in every photo you can see fresh growth on the surrounding vegetation which correlates with the rainy season or mild climates.

Although I haven't observed these animals in the wild I'm inclined to think that rapid growth can and does occur in the wild during seasons with extended ideal conditions. Some individuals may take better advantage of these ideal conditions depending on their current state of health.

I have had the same observations as Tom pointed out with tortoises that were raised outside primarily from a very early age. It seems the babies that spend 80-90% of their time indoors in sealed enclosures grow at much faster, more consistent rates than those that get primarily outside time. My current routine for my babies and yearlings is to soak them in the sunshine (provided it's out) which gives them at least 20-30 min of natural sunshine at least 5-7 times a week. This seems to be more than enough for proper shell development and overall health.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tyroneping/27501168606/in/faves-36278312@N02/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/melissabel/5258480917/in/faves-36278312@N02/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/per/3411505761/in/faves-36278312@N02/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tyroneping/6016686359/in/faves-36278312@N02/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/churwitz/8802972430/in/faves-36278312@N02/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/moosedangerhall/5556806662/in/faves-36278312@N02/

 

[Slow and steady]

In the wild a tortoise will only produce those wider bands of new growth when fresh, nutritional food is available. That is the monsoon season.

So if your thought on this is correct, with monsoon season being an annual occurrence, you would be able to estimate a wild torts age by the number of wide growth bands on it's scutes, correct? "Estimate" being the key word here.

 

[Slow and steady]

Great, so after posting my last, genius here did a google search. Seems my "annual ring theory" has been discussed time and again.

 

[Nickypoo]

@Tom and everyone else. Here is my slow grower. Even though he has grown slow, he's grown really smooth. Thanks to all the humidity talk in this forum.