Possible RI of some sort?

[Cymmie]

So my little Hermann's tortoise has recently started showing some possible sign of RI? I am not positive, I think I might have caught it early if so. But other reptiles like my chameleons show similar signs when they have an RI starting and I just want to make sure. I have read the info on it, but I am not positive.

Symptoms at the moment:
Clicking when breathing
Excess Mucus in his mouth when open it

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Those are certainly symptoms of an RI and not particularly early ones either. What are your 'four temperatures' (basking spot, warm end, cool end, overnight low)? You may need to warm things up to help his immune system. Since we're already at the mucous stage, a trip to the vet for antibiotics is also in order.

 

[JoesMum]

I agree with Sarah

- Make an appointment with a vet experienced with torts asap. This is not early stage and requires antibiotics.

- Your tort needs warmth. Minimum 80F/27 C day and night. Directly under the basking lamp must be 37C/100F

Act quickly. Decline can be very fast and recovery is slow

 

[Cymmie]

OK I will make an appointment with my Exotic vet today. She has tortoises of her own. I have been keeping him outside lately except at night, because during the day in the sun we hit 80 F easy and when you just sit in the sun without coverage it feels much worse. Of course he can go in and out of shade I have created. At night he has nothing as far as heat. It doesn't drop below 64F in our house, since I bring him in for the night still. (we haven't moved yet and when we move we will own our house and he will have his own outside enclosure that is permanent and safe for him to be outside all year round.) In my actual room, where all my reptiles all kept, the humidity is a smidge higher than the rest of the house even at night and it is about 70 at least, at night.

Any info on how to keep him warm at night? Without disturbing him sleep wise?

 

[JoesMum]

You need a ceramic heat emitter with a thermostat

 

[Cymmie]

Ok will make sure to do all such things. He has an appointment for this week in two days. I am already cleaning out all the Coco fiber I had in there and replacing it soon before I do I will be bleaching (diluted) his container just in case.

I will be buying the cermic heat emitter because I don't think I have one at the moment. Otherwise he has his basking/uvb mercury vapor up and made sure the temps are correct with my digital thermometer. can't wait to get him to the vet.

 

[Cymmie]

I may make an emergency appointment for him tomorrow and see if I can just do a drop off with her. It's too late today, but he's being too lethargic compared to yesterday and it's moving to fast for my comfort. I am preparing his newly cleaned and am almost done. >.< worried to death.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

The cleaning is likely not needed. Providing warmth is your big concern right now. If you have a space heater, pull it out to provide night heat. If your basking bulb is the only option and you have a sick baby getting down into the 60s overnight, turn it on (but provide a dark hide for the tortoise to get out of the light). Cold tortoises will only get sicker. Get your low up to 80F, 85F even.

 

[Cymmie]

Cleaning has already happened, he will be moved in soon. He has been in my reptile room after it got too cold to be outside, and when the lights are all on in the reptile room plus his light, his low is easily 80-83 and his basking is 100. But it's the night heat I didn't realize. For some reason with all the research I did before getting him I would have assumed I would have given him night heat? maybe I just didn't run across it correctly?Or is it only when they are sick? Either way he is in his new clean enclosure at the moment and is sleeping with a lower wattage cermic heat emitter since I only need to bump it a bit. I checked temps after buying to different ones and he needs the lower one. I will check to see how he does tomorrow to see if he needs a drop off. I always prefer to be with my guys when they go in because I usually have a lot of observations. But sometimes it's unavoidable.

 

[Cymmie]

I also noticed today when I was picking him up to move him outside, that he has... kind of any area that looks more porous than other places? I don't know if it's shell rot? Could be a fungus eating away at his shell and I have never had to worry about that before and I have had him over 4 years so that worries me a smidge. But it is right up near his face, and he does have a slate stone in there that he eats from. He also has a ceramic pot bottom as his dish? I am assuming shell rot is an easier fix than an RI as far as vet visit goes?

 

[Cymmie]

God it's not shell rot... idk think, I am also not sure how much of this RI is caused by cooler night temps *groans* he has a horrible infestation of mites. I am not positive of why, other than maybe he had them when I got him and they just suddenly exploded? It is definitely hard to see mites on him. But god I can't imagine how long it's been going on to get this bad. I am bringing him in first thing I can tomorrow, whether I make an emergency appointment with my exotic vet or do a drop off. He needs to be seen now. I am so mad at myself. I have dealt once before with mites but it was with a wild caught and I hate the things. Thankfully I have recently checked all my other reptiles and none showed any issues. Though my blue tongue is due for a deep clean so I might just bump him up. There are so many curse words I want to say now. Thank god I didn't put Teo in his new bin though or else it would have been destroyed. He is right now in a hospital tank (just a rubber maid) with towels I can wash. So mad. Anyone have any advice for emergent mites care until tomorrow? I will be looking it up myself.

 

[Cymmie]

Ok emergency overnight treatment has been done. I was reading stuff, read something about dawn soap, and then remembered for my wild caught all I did was use thick olive oil and rub it all over my reptile. With a tortoise it is a little bit different but was able to get everything with q-tips and a soft bristled tooth brush. He of course did not enjoy all the man-handling, especially since it is way passed his bed time, but I just apologized while doing it and kept going. He sat with the olive oil all over him for around 12 minutes, and then he was soak in warm water (and though he's sleepy he does always love a warm soak XD). A lot of mites came off, not just when doing the olive oil application but also when I was rubbing off the olive oil and pouring water over his shell. Then 10 minutes into his warm water soak he had at least 50+ more floating in the water long dead around him. I know there are likely still eggs to deal with, and I honestly can't wait to get him in tomorrow, not just for the RI but also for mite care and god knows what else. But I am hoping this relieves him a bit. At the moment he's in a second hospital rubbermaid (I am so glad we have a small stack of various sizes just for animals and emergent care... gotta love my mom sometimes) since I have been dealing with this around 5 hours or so, I can't even face cleaning out the hospital rubbermaid he was just in, anything he was just recently in that has not been cleaned is outside and far away from the house. Otherwise I have been divested of clothes, rinsed with burning hot water under the shower and am now wearing pajamas. Teo is forced to only have a towel as "substrate" for now. But I have covered him a smidge to make it seem like a burrow and have turned off all the overhead lights.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Mites are fairly unusual, especially on indoor tortoises that aren't recent imports. Do you have snakes in this reptile room too? They are usually who I think of harbouring mites in captivity. In case you don't know already and it comes up or you have it on hand to treat other animals, ivermectin should never be used on tortoises. It's a common treatment for external parasites, but it is toxic to chelonians at doses therapeutic for other reptiles so steer clear.

A substrate free hospital tank is wise right now. The night heat is only essential while you have a sick tortoise. Testudo species benefit from a night temperature drop while healthy, but with an advanced RI, it is better to keep them warm all the time so their immune system is in top shape.

 

[Cymmie]

I have a Blue Tongue Skink in the same room, and he was my other reptile who got mites. I had checked Teo and practiced a lot of careful handling while my Blue Tongue was being treated with my other reptiles and animals in general. Maybe I just missed it, ugh. If I remember correctly I treated my Blue Tongue about a year and a half ago. Which worries me that Teo has had it this long? But I also used a weird substrate with him a while back and noticed strange insect activity in that substrate which made me remove it, but I never thought it would be a harmful mite to him. Poor buddy. He is lethargic for sure. But the olive oil and soak seemed to have perked him up while it was happening, and though I definitely don't like seeing that many mites come off any of my animals, I can't help but feel happy as well because then there are less of those pests on him. I am hoping I can drop him off without any issues tomorrow as soon as possible and we can deal with the mites as soon as possible, deal with whatever is left and the eggs. Thanks you guys so much for being here. You have no idea. Kind of terrified me when I realized he was sick and I couldn't figure out what I had done specifically. I will watch the night temps more closely now for sure. Just to make sure it doesn't go super low, especially as he is recovering. And I am going to go over all the reptiles in my room and their cages just to make sure nothing weird has changed over. I hate being scared like this. He's my only tort right now so I at least don't have to worry about him passing it to anyone through direct contact.

 

[Cymmie]

Dropped him off. Filled out the usual form of what I know is wrong for sure. My vet has tortoises, I know she has Californian tortoises not sure if she has anything else. She has seen Two before. The olive oil last night helped. Hoping for a quick fix and otherwise better health than I expect. When I get home I will be fiddling with his new set up a bit to make it perfect for when he is safe to go in.

 

[JoesMum]

Dropped him off. Filled out the usual form of what I know is wrong for sure. My vet has tortoises, I know she has Californian tortoises not sure if she has anything else. She has seen Two before. The olive oil last night helped. Hoping for a quick fix and otherwise better health than I expect. When I get home I will be fiddling with his new set up a bit to make it perfect for when he is safe to go in.

I hope everything is sorted quickly. Recovery from RI does tend to be very slow usually.

 

[Cymmie]

Slow is something I can handle as long as he can recover. I deal with rehabilitation of chameleons on a regular basis, they do slow everything except get sick. As long as he can get better I am ok with babying him and medicating him everyday. Even if it requires hand watering and hand feeding. Which I don't think will be necessary. He was still eating and drinking on his own (though less) up to today. His lethargy is what really spurred me into dropping him off today. He went lethargic almost over night. So I wasn't going to mess around.

 

[Cymmie]

So he does have an RI, she says she doesn't see mucus but his breathing is a bit labored and there is some clicking. She does injectable antibiotics, which she does specifically for torts. She has told us how to do it, my mom is a neonatal nurse so it won't be too hard just a bit annoying for him and make him not like us for a bit I am sure. We have given fluids to our hamsters before with insulin needles so this is just another step. She said she saw no mites at all even after doing a scraping. Which makes me wonder what I saw? I know they were bugs for sure. Kind of oval more tear drop shaped, most of them were a pale gray and some a light orangish-red?

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Springtails often get mistaken for mites by new keepers. They are totally harmless and feed off of decaying matter in the substrate. They are usually not clinging to animals en masse though.

 

[Cymmie]

Yeah I usually use springtails for cleaner crews in my tropical roach bins when they have substrate. But I have never noticed them show interest in the living inhabitants. I will be waiting for a bit. But he shows no signs of insects anymore. Which I would assume there would still be some mites around especially if it was just an olive oil treatment. Does anyone know the lifespan of the mites? how long it takes to go from egg to mite or larvae etc?