Poorly Earl, Conflicting advice and confuzzled brain!

[LucyJ]

Hi, thank you for letting me join! I have already learnt that pretty much everything I've done with him is incorrect in some way from reading the care sheets on here.

I have a Russian tortoise called Earl. He is around 11 years old. He started off in a vivarium then wd moved him to a tortoise table and then we let him rome around the house (yes, I now know this was wrong). He has always been active around the home, finding his food and seemed happy.
About 10 days ago he stopped moving - it was as though he couldn't lift himself up to move, his little legs would flap but no walking around. He also wasn't eating.
I took him to the vet who said he was dehydrated but she wasn't an expect in tortoises (her words). She recommended Reptoboost in his bath which I did 3 times a day. There was no improvement so I phoned back. She gave me the number of a tortoise expert vet and off Earl and I went. This lovely guy said his hydration was better. He gave him a worming med and some extra fluids and prescribed him Karidox which I give him once a day. I have to continue with the bathing and get him out into the garden. All of which I am doing. I asked if I should put him back in a tortoise table for heat and uv light but he said in this warm weather its OK.
I then read on here that unless the temp etc is correct there will be a back up of antibiotics in his bloods and he won't get better.
I'm heartbroken my incompetence all these years has made him unwell. I'm so sorry Earl 😢
Any advice is very very welcome.
Thank you in advance.

 

[jsheffield]

Let us know the environmental conditions under which he's living... heat, humidity, light, space, food... with pics of him, the enclosure, and him in the enclosure.

That'll give people an idea about advice.

Jamie

 

[wellington]

While he is ill, I would keep him in 80 temps all day, basking temp need to be 95-100 and I would not let night temp get below 70/75.
If it's warm enough for him to be outside then that's the best place for him. Be sure he's in an escape proof enclosure with shade, sun and water.

 

[LucyJ]

Let us know the environmental conditions under which he's living... heat, humidity, light, space, food... with pics of him, the enclosure, and him in the enclosure.

That'll give people an idea about advice.

Jamie

Hi Jamie thanks for replying!

He is not in an enclosure, he roams freely around the house. There is no heat lamp or uv lamp but he does go outside, again not in an enclosure.
He is fed rocket, watercress, tomatoes, lettuce, dandelions, carrots, strawberries alongside compressed grass blocks that you soak and flower food pellets - the vet told me the shop bought pellets etc aren't good for them, so that will be changing. The vet suggested using Emeraid also.

I now know the roaming free is not OK.

The vet wants to see him again in a fortnight and if there is no improvement he will do blood tests but I'm concerned with leaving it that long and without the correct conditions the antibiotics won't work anyway??

Another vet suggested putting him in a cupboard or bedside cabinet with the heat lamp and some straw to warm him up so he will eat.

He isn't able to move apart from occasionally he manages to spin around over time.

If I put him in a tortoise table with the correct substrate etc is it going to be enough seeings as he can't move and he won't benefit from the heat (it's like heating a house with no roof).

I hope that all makes sense 🙈
I think I have uploaded a video or photo of him!
The video format is not supported unfortunately, so I will have to take some better photos when I get home.

Thank you

 

[LucyJ]

While he is ill, I would keep him in 80 temps all day, basking temp need to be 95-100 and I would not let night temp get below 70/75.
If it's warm enough for him to be outside then that's the best place for him. Be sure he's in an escape proof enclosure with shade, sun and water.

Thank you for reply, I really appreciate it.

I'm putting him outside and sitting with him as I haven't got an outside enclosure yet.

I have put the ceramic heat lamp on a plastic box with some straw and put him in it as a short term measure but don't feel its adequately heating as it has no lid.
A vet has suggested putting him in a cupboard or bedside cabinet with the heat lamp - is this OK? What about light?

I just want to get this right for him.

Thanks again 😊

 

[Tom]

Did they X-ray him? One of the many things that goes wrong with free roaming is ingestion of common household items. Is the tortoise pooping regularly? Pooping in the soaks? It may have swallowed something toxic, or something like a nail or screw that is not blocking the intestinal tract.

Another possibility with no heat and no UV is metabolic bone disease. Most of the care info out in the world is all wrong, but I have never seen any of those wrong care sheets that says to let them roam the house with no heat source and no UV.

A plastic box with straw will make things worse. Straw does nothing for ectotherms. Straw keeps an endotherm warm because they are generating their own heat from within, and the straw has some insulation properties that keep the heat in.

Your tortoise needs a proper large indoor enclosure with they correct heating and lighting, substrate, hides, water and food dishes, basking slate, etc... Outdoors in a large secure enclosure is great for warmer days, but a heated shelter would still be of benefit.

Please read these and follow the advice given if you want your tortoise to survive. Also get an X-ray to rule out intestinal obstruction.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[LucyJ]

Thank you very much Tom. I will act on your advice straight away.

 

[LucyJ]

Did they X-ray him? One of the many things that goes wrong with free roaming is ingestion of common household items. Is the tortoise pooping regularly? Pooping in the soaks? It may have swallowed something toxic, or something like a nail or screw that is not blocking the intestinal tract.

Another possibility with no heat and no UV is metabolic bone disease. Most of the care info out in the world is all wrong, but I have never seen any of those wrong care sheets that says to let them roam the house with no heat source and no UV.

A plastic box with straw will make things worse. Straw does nothing for ectotherms. Straw keeps an endotherm warm because they are generating their own heat from within, and the straw has some insulation properties that keep the heat in.

Your tortoise needs a proper large indoor enclosure with they correct heating and lighting, substrate, hides, water and food dishes, basking slate, etc... Outdoors in a large secure enclosure is great for warmer days, but a heated shelter would still be of benefit.

Please read these and follow the advice given if you want your tortoise to survive. Also get an X-ray to rule out intestinal obstruction.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

No they haven't x-rayed him yet. No pooping in the water either.
I will remove him from the box with straw. As I need to keep him warm while he is ill and haven't got a big enough enclosure at present, is there anything temporary that would be of benefit?
Thank you for your help.

 

[Yvonne G]

My thought was the same as Tom's. Roaming around on the floor has given him access to all sorts of little objects he may have ingested, and that might be causing a blockage. The blockage is pressing on the nerves causing him to not be able to walk. I think an x-ray is in order.

 

[Tom]

No they haven't x-rayed him yet. No pooping in the water either.
I will remove him from the box with straw. As I need to keep him warm while he is ill and haven't got a big enough enclosure at present, is there anything temporary that would be of benefit?
Thank you for your help.

Any sort of large container will work. Horse watering troughs tend to work well. Just put in the correct substrate, heat and lighting.

 

[TammyJ]

Can you post pictures?

 

[LucyJ]

This is Earl this morning after his Reptoboost bath. Still has eaten or pooped.
Had 3 days of Karidox so far. He doesnt pull his head in if you touch him really. Calling the vet again today.
What uv light do I need to get please?
Tom's sheet said a tube one from a hardware store - has someone got a photo?
Raining here in the UK today but temps are around 22 degrees in my area.

 

[Michael Bird]

He is fed rocket, watercress, tomatoes, lettuce, dandelions, carrots, strawberries alongside compressed grass blocks that you soak and flower food pellets - the vet told me the shop bought pellets etc aren't good for them, so that will be changing. The vet suggested using Emeraid also.

Others have mentioned the likelihood that he swallowed something he shouldn't, and that would definitely explain his current behavior.

But I haven't seen anyone respond to this bit so I'll add some comments here based on my admittedly limited knowledge.

I'm not familiar enough with Russian tortoises specifically, but Mediterranean tortoises like Russians, Hermann's, Greeks, and Marginated don't normally eat grass. The grass blocks are for species like Sulcatas, Leopards, and Indian Stars that are grass grazers.

Depending on what is in the flower food pellets, they might be OK or they might not. There are other pellet types like the Mazuri Tortoise Diet, that have a very good mixture of foods that are healthier for the smaller tortoise species (and good for pretty much all varieties). But even those should only be a part of a varied diet and not the only food that they eat.

Rocket lettuce, watercress, and carrots should be fed sparingly. They aren't particularly BAD for the tortoise in small amounts as part of a varied diet, but they contain substances that can be harmful in larger amounts.

Dandelions are great as long as they aren't a primary part of the diet. They can be problematic if the tortoise eats a lot of them. Too much of a good thing...

Strawberry fruits are a straight up no except maybe as a VERY rare treat. The tortoise digestive system simply can't handle the sugars from the fruit. Young (recently sprouted) leaves are OK once in a while. Older leaves can develop toxins. It's probably best just to stay away from the whole plant to avoid possible problems..

Tomatoes are a similar situation. Some tortoises love to eat the ripe fruits, and they can be OK for a rare treat, but they have virtually no nutritional value, and the leaves and unripe fruit are toxic.

Tom posted links to some excellent care guides for the tortoise. I strongly recommend reading them carefully, and probably multiple times!

A good resource to check on the health benefits and hazards of plants is The Tortoise Table. It doesn't list every plant. But it does have a lot of good information and is a good place to start when looking for good plants for the tortoise to eat.

 

[LucyJ]

Thank you Michael!

This is what I mean about conflicting info!
The vet said to feed him green leaves like rocket etc and not the pellets.
The lady in the pet store said they like colours so lots of carrots, tomatoes strawberries etc
It's mind boggling!
I am going to stick with the care sheets from Tom and go with the info you lovely lot are giving me.
I think I've read the sheets 6 times already - going to make some notes of the bits that I need for quick reference!

Thank you 😊

 

[Michael Bird]

It really is sad that so many pet stores, and even pet breeders, give out really bad information that leads to an unhealthy (and often short) life for the animals!

 

[Ricky j]

Hi Jamie thanks for replying!

He is not in an enclosure, he roams freely around the house. There is no heat lamp or uv lamp but he does go outside, again not in an enclosure.
He is fed rocket, watercress, tomatoes, lettuce, dandelions, carrots, strawberries alongside compressed grass blocks that you soak and flower food pellets - the vet told me the shop bought pellets etc aren't good for them, so that will be changing. The vet suggested using Emeraid also.

I now know the roaming free is not OK.

The vet wants to see him again in a fortnight and if there is no improvement he will do blood tests but I'm concerned with leaving it that long and without the correct conditions the antibiotics won't work anyway??

Another vet suggested putting him in a cupboard or bedside cabinet with the heat lamp and some straw to warm him up so he will eat.

He isn't able to move apart from occasionally he manages to spin around over time.

If I put him in a tortoise table with the correct substrate etc is it going to be enough seeings as he can't move and he won't benefit from the heat (it's like heating a house with no roof).

I hope that all makes sense 🙈
I think I have uploaded a video or photo of him!
The video format is not supported unfortunately, so I will have to take some better photos when I get home.

Thank you

No strawberries for ur Russian

 

[Tom]

This is Earl this morning after his Reptoboost bath. Still has eaten or pooped.
Had 3 days of Karidox so far. He doesnt pull his head in if you touch him really. Calling the vet again today.
What uv light do I need to get please?
Tom's sheet said a tube one from a hardware store - has someone got a photo?
Raining here in the UK today but temps are around 22 degrees in my area.
View attachment 358206

The incandescent bulbs for basking and the LEDs for ambient light can be found at hardware stores, but the UV bulbs are found online or {gasp...} in pet shops. I recommend the Arcadia Pro T5 Kit. Those come with everything included and a 12% HO florescent tube that will give your tortoise the UVB that it needs. Arcadia is widely available in the UK, so it shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[LucyJ]

Sadly, this one is on me 😔
A little knowledge is dangerous.
Hoping to save him and move forward.

 

[LucyJ]

The incandescent bulbs for basking and the LEDs for ambient light can be found at hardware stores, but the UV bulbs are found online or {gasp...} in pet shops. I recommend the Arcadia Pro T5 Kit. Those come with everything included and a 12% HO florescent tube that will give your tortoise the UVB that it needs. Arcadia is widely available in the UK, so it shouldn't be hard to find.

Thank you Tom 😊

 

[Tom]

Thank you Michael!

This is what I mean about conflicting info!
The vet said to feed him green leaves like rocket etc and not the pellets.
The lady in the pet store said they like colours so lots of carrots, tomatoes strawberries etc
It's mind boggling!

These things frustrate the lot of us! Most people, like yourself, have the best of intentions and just want to know how to properly care for their pet. Why wouldn't you ask a "pet" store? Surely a veterinarian with all those years of schooling should know what they are talking about, right? Why don't vets and pet stores understand the most basic tenants of tortoise care? Its because the wrong information, based on old incorrect assumptions of how they live in the wild, has been written down and passed from generation to generation for decades. It was wrong decades ago, but it keeps getting repeated. And then some people put a strawberry in front of their tortoise and the tortoise takes to it like a kid in a candy store, so they assume that it is "good" for the tortoise. It isn't.

What little time is spent on tortoises in vet school is spent repeating the old wrong info. The vet handbooks and websites that practicing vets refer to when there is a customer with a tortoise in their waiting room are filled with that same old wrong info the I was taught 30+ years ago, and that I taught to my pet store customers until I learned otherwise.

In time, with enough trial and error, everyone will learn the things I am trying to get across. That is how I learned it, and everyone else that I know of that has learned the correct care info learned it. But how many tortoises need to receive the wrong care for how many years, before each person learns this stuff on their own? Some people only have one tortoise and since it is still alive, they figure the information they have is the "right" information. If that person had hatched and raised 100s or 1000s of tortoises and done side-by-side comparisons eliminating variables as they go, then they would know what I know. Its the people who have tried the different methods and studied their results and the results of others that really know what is going on. We try to share this info with new tortoise keepers, but there is a sea of bad info raging out there. That tide is slowly turning though...