Help - Baby Leopard Tortoise Died - Need Advice & Breeder References

[Frank C.]

Hello, I am new to the forum (joined today) and I am writing to ask for advice. I just found my baby Leopard Tortoise dead in her indoor habitat. I do not know why L – I had her little over one month. She had her vet check-up about three weeks ago and got a full clean bill of health. She had gained weigh - almost 1g since then.

I bought my baby Leopard Tortoise from the “Turtle Store” online (for around $150.00) and received it on October 20th. I calculated that she was around two months old. I had been feeding her every day a combination of turnip greens and a variety of kales. She always had a shallow clean water dish and I gave her a warm soak also every day. The enclosure had a 100W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB Lamp, a 100W heat emitter, and an ExoTerra 100W Red Infrared light bulb. The 100W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB Lamp was only kept on during the day (roughly 12 -14 hours). The other two remained on. The enclosure is kept in the 90s up to about 103F at times on the hottest part and 70s in the cooler area. The main substrate is ZooMed Premium Repti Bark (basically bark of fir trees). On the hot area I have a layer of wet moss for humidity, an area with Timothy Grass, and an area of dry moss in the cooler side. She had several hiding places – one of them enclosed with a small opening so that she could get in and out. The size of the tortoise enclosure is 42” x 20” x 8” high.

My questions are:

1. Could it had been the “fir bark” substrate?
   
   
2. I want to buy another baby Leopard Tortoise – Who should I buy it from? Any suggestions please help?

Thank you,

Frank

 

[cmacusa3]

Did you have the CHE (heat emitter) on thermostat? What kind of humidity and night temps did you have. That 70's cool spot is too low. Is it open top enclosure?

Fir bark is not an issue.

Can you post a picture of the enclosure?

1g in 3 weeks is very slow growth for a hatchling

 

[Frank C.]

Did you have the CHE (heat emitter) on thermostat? What kind of humidity and night temps did you have. That 70's cool spot is too low. Is it open top enclosure?

Fir bark is not an issue.

Can you post a picture of the enclosure?

1g in 3 weeks is very slow growth for a hatchling

Heat emitter not on thermostat but I have thermometers to constantly keep an eye and by now I can tell how hot/cool it can get. Open top pretty much - but I cover sometimes with a screen (Terrarium heat-resistant metal screen)

 

[wellington]

Hello and Welcome. Please read the threads on closed chamber written by our member Tom. Temps 80 all over day and night, with basking of 95-100 and humidity 80% always or even higher. Coconut coir or orchard bark are great substrats, but not hay. By from a breeder on the forum is your best way to go, someone that starts them out correctly, which is hot and HUMID with daily soaks.
Sorry for your loss. Probably had nothing to do with you, but the way it was kept before you got it, too dry.

 

[cmacusa3]

From looking at that you had very low night temps, that shows 73 on the cold end and I bet it got even colder in the middle of the night. I would look at closing the enclosure up before you get another.

And sorry for the loss, it's never easy.

 

[cmacusa3]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I'd buy from
@Elohi @Jodie @Neal @Greg T @Will or @Yvonne G
Any of them will have well started babies and offer post purchase support

 

[Tom]

Hello, I am new to the forum (joined today) and I am writing to ask for advice. I just found my baby Leopard Tortoise dead in her indoor habitat. I do not know why L – I had her little over one month. She had her vet check-up about three weeks ago and got a full clean bill of health. She had gained weigh - almost 1g since then.

I bought my baby Leopard Tortoise from the “Turtle Store” online (for around $150.00) and received it on October 20th. I calculated that she was around two months old. I had been feeding her every day a combination of turnip greens and a variety of kales. She always had a shallow clean water dish and I gave her a warm soak also every day. The enclosure had a 100W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB Lamp, a 100W heat emitter, and an ExoTerra 100W Red Infrared light bulb. The 100W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB Lamp was only kept on during the day (roughly 12 -14 hours). The other two remained on. The enclosure is kept in the 90s up to about 103F at times on the hottest part and 70s in the cooler area. The main substrate is ZooMed Premium Repti Bark (basically bark of fir trees). On the hot area I have a layer of wet moss for humidity, an area with Timothy Grass, and an area of dry moss in the cooler side. She had several hiding places – one of them enclosed with a small opening so that she could get in and out. The size of the tortoise enclosure is 42” x 20” x 8” high.

My questions are:

1. Could it had been the “fir bark” substrate?
   
   
2. I want to buy another baby Leopard Tortoise – Who should I buy it from? Any suggestions please help?

Thank you,

Frank

Hello and welcome Frank. What you have likely run into here is the misinformation about how to raise these babies that is still out there in the world. We've been doing it all wrong for that last 30 years. The old info was based on incorrect assumptions about their lives in the wild, and we just didn't know better. A large percentage of the tortoise keeping community, perhaps most of them, still have not caught on.

New tortoise keepers get on the web, talk to vets, breeders or "experts", read books or magazine articles and generally do "research", but most of the info from these sources is all wrong.

I will walk you through some threads that will explain in more detail without me having to type the same info again. Here is what frequently goes wrong: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/ This is a direct result of breeders starting them too dry, in dry environments, with low humidity and not soaking enough.

Here is how they should be raised for comparison:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Next up is how they should be raised:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

What not to do:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Feeding ideas:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/ Skip the text and just scroll down to the food list.

Specifically in your enclosure, here are the issues I see:
1. Low sided sweater boxes are the worst possible enclosures for maintaining heat and humidity. They let all the heat and humidity out into the room.
2. Fir bark is the best substrate for these guys.
3. Red bulbs should not be used. Tortoises have better color vision than we do. Making them live in a red world messes with their heads in a bad way.
4. Most vets know little or nothing about tortoise care, and there is nothing they can see from looking at the outside of tortoise that you can't see yourself.
5. Kale and turnip greens are okay once in a while as a small part of the diet, but they should not be staples.
6. Cool side was too cool. Don't go below 80.
7. I wouldn't use the hay and they don't need a dry section.
8. Looks like you needed a humid hide.

Overall, following the old out-dated care info, you did a good job. We just know better now how to care for them. I suspect the issue with your baby was the care it receive at the breeder's place.

The best place to buy is directly from a breeder who starts them right and can tell you every aspect of the care the baby received up until you got it. Buying from a large online broker frequently leads to the result you got. I'm sorry you had to find out this way, but now you know.

Please ask more questions after reading those threads. Happy to explain more.

 

[Jodie]

Hello, and sorry for your loss. Been there, and it sucks! Tom has given you a ton of great info. Ask any questions you have as you prepare for another. I have hatchlings, but because I am in the north it is too cold to ship. Mine will be available in the spring.

 

[Carol S]

I am sorry for the loss of your little Leopard Tortoises.

 

[TerrapinStation]

Very sorry for your loss.

 

[Frank C.]

Ok, sounds like I need to work on perfecting my habitat/enclosure first. Apparently mine is not keeping the humidity and temperatures very well because is not covered. From the bottom of my heart I thank you so much for all the great information you have provided me. I really appreciate it.

So....any ideas as to where I can buy or order an appropriate covered indoors tortoise enclosure? If I try to put a cover on mine (wood, glass or Plexiglas) I will not be able to put my lights and heat emitters inside because it is to shallow for that (7 1/4" tall).

Frank

PS. Jodie, I will keep you in mind when I get ready to buy.

 

[Tom]

I build my own, but recently it has been pointed out that a company called "Animal Plastics" makes large plastic enclosures that would work well for our tortoise purposes. I have not yet bought one to try, but I heard favorable reviews from those who have.

 

[Tom]

Here are some examples:
The best ever: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/search/11405664/?q=our+new+closed+chamber+for&t=post&o=relevance

An oldie, but goodie:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Last year's experiment. Don't copy the heating and lighting, but you can see the box itself:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

 

[Greg T]

I agree with the others, I think there was an issue before you got her. Go with Tom's advice. I would certainly change the diet though. Basically avoid kale and spinach for babies. Feed red leaf, green leaf, and spring mix lettuces as the daily food, supplemented with some other greens, weeds and flowers. Throw in some wetted Mazuri pellets every few days. Her growth was very slow, should see much more than a gram a week.

Sorry for your loss, but babies are not easy. You have the proper setup with a few tweaks, so don't be afraid to try again. Plenty of good members with babies on the forum versus store bought. I'll have some again next February.

 

[Yvonne G]

I just drape plastic over the whole thing, lights and all. Cheap and easy. You have to make sure the plastic doesn't touch the hot lights, but I haven't had any problems for several years of doing it this way:

(These babies were for sale. I wouldn't keep that many in an aquarium this size if it was their permanent home)

 

[Frank C.]

Here are some examples:
The best ever: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/search/11405664/?q=our+new+closed+chamber+for&t=post&o=relevance

An oldie, but goodie:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Last year's experiment. Don't copy the heating and lighting, but you can see the box itself:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

How do you add and control humidity in an enclosed habitat? Humidifier with humidity controller in addition to the thermostat with Flexwatt belly heat for the temperature?

 

[Tom]

How do you add and control humidity in an enclosed habitat? Humidifier with humidity controller in addition to the thermostat with Flexwatt belly heat for the temperature?

Damp substrate will continually humidify the air, as long as the air is somewhat contained. Your chamber does not need to be air tight, but as long as the air isn't freely circulating with the cooler drier room air, your chamber will stay more humid. I'm not a fan of using humidifiers. They shouldn't be needed.

I also don't like belly heat for tortoises in most cases. Large adults living outside with Kane mats in their insulated boxes being the only exception. I maintain the ambient heat with ceramic heating elements or with radiant heat panels controlled by a thermostat, and basking heat comes from a regular incandescent bulb on a timer, as described in those threads.

You'll also find that closed chambers require only a fraction of the wattage and electricity to be burned since they contain all the heat, instead of letting it float up into the room.

 

[firewire]

I build my own, but recently it has been pointed out that a company called "Animal Plastics" makes large plastic enclosures that would work well for our tortoise purposes. I have not yet bought one to try, but I heard favorable reviews from those who have.

I checked the website out and only see ones with sliding glass Windows. Would those stress the torts?

http://www.apcages.com/home/

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I checked the website out and only see ones with sliding glass Windows. Would those stress the torts?

http://www.apcages.com/home/

Because it's sliding or because it's a see through barrier?