Discussion on big torts and bad breeders

[Reptilony]

I remember the breeder telling me "they don't grow very big here"(Canada) and have to disagree it's because they are not given the right conditions that they don't grow fast not because they are in certain location. They don't care where they are they just know if they are given the right care and I know Canada is a cold place and yes I will build a giant greenhouse with crazy electric bills! To be honest maybe they shouldn't be sold so easily here because I know almost no one all across canada is willing to spend that much money on a animal. Man sulcatas get big im sure most of em sold here end up dead. I saw one in a pet shop a couple months ago who was abandonned and of course had crazy pyramiding and it was in an enclosure no bigger than 10 times its own size! This is almost like people selling RES 5$ each and propably say take a couple ones so they don't get lonely! (Kenan here) Breeders should not even sell living animals to people they don't know can take good care of it, especially with delicate animals like tortoises. Im not trying to bash breeders here just BAD breeders. Maybe the only way to stop this is to not buy anymore dry started tortoise because we are encouraging them to produce more. It's not a rescue, the breeder will just produce more! And honestly Im in the wrong too , im in Canada and for this only reason I souldn't be able to acquire a large tortoise that easily. A smaller species is more adequate because it can be housed indoor year round more easily. It's like you want a blue whale for your aquarium? This shouldn't be sold. Now I have her and will do WATHEVER it takes $$$ to house her properly. Not trying to offend anyone just giving my opinion. Let me know what you think.

 

[daniellenc]

So don’t take this the wrong way buuuuuuut.....did you research their full grown size before purchasing? It’s peoples responsibility to research before purchasing an animal and not the governments job to sanction the ignorance of others. A quick google search would have told you sulcata care is rough in cold climates because they near 100 lbs or more as adults. It’s possible but expensive and time consuming. I’m a fan of free will. Unless an animal is dangerous or endangered I don’t agree with laws limiting purchase. Your dilemma is why hundreds of sulcatas are rehommed each year if not thousands, and why many more are simply neglected. You can always resell and purchase a more climate appropriate tort though you’re not alone figuring out too late you took on too much.

 

[Toddrickfl1]

I'm sure some people won't agree, but in my opinion I think it should require some kind of permit to own any tortoise that grows larger than a Redfoot, especially Sulcatas. You would have to prove beforehand you have the proper living conditions for the tortoise for when it's an adult already setup to obtain the permit and acquiring the tortoise. I think this would ensure only responsible people who will be giving the tortoise what it needs will be owning one.

 

[Reptilony]

I remember the breeder telling me "they don't grow very big here"(Canada) and have to disagree it's because they are not given the right conditions that they don't grow fast not because they are in certain location. They don't care where they are they just know if they are given the right care and I know Canada is a cold place and yes I will build a giant greenhouse with crazy electric bills! To be honest maybe they shouldn't be sold so easily here because I know almost no one all across canada is willing to spend that much money on a animal. Man sulcatas get big im sure most of em sold here end up dead. I saw one in a pet shop a couple months ago who was abandonned and of course had crazy pyramiding and it was in an enclosure no bigger than 10 times its own size! This is almost like people selling RES 5$ each and propably say take a couple ones so they don't get lonely! (Kenan here) Breeders should not even sell living animals to people they don't know can take good care of it, especially with delicate animals like tortoises. Im not trying to bash breeders here just BAD breeders. Maybe the only way to stop this is to not buy anymore dry started tortoise because we are encouraging them to produce more. It's not a rescue, the breeder will just produce more! And honestly Im in the wrong too , im in Canada and for this only reason I souldn't be able to acquire a large tortoise that easily. A smaller species is more adequate because it can be housed indoor year round more easily. It's like you want a blue whale for your aquarium? This shouldn't be sold. Now I have her and will do WATHEVER it takes $$$ to house her properly. Not trying to offend anyone just giving my opinion. Let me know what you think.

Just to clarify things, yes I think sulcatas (and bigger torts) shouldn't be sold in canada. Am I happy that I got one sully? Yes, because I WILL take good care off it. However, I am also not happy because I helped someone who sentence to death tens of torts every year because owning a sulcata in canada is kind of having a penguin in the sahara(not impossible, but would need tons of knowledge and money) which I know most people wont achieve. Btw every breeder should refer this forum to everyone it's sold to unless it's an experienced keeper...The thing is, I would have prefered that 99% tortoises of a certain specie don't suffer than me getting one and taking good care of it. That is my take...

 

[wellington]

I agree that research should be done before any animal is purchased. With the internet there is no excuse.
As for a large tort and Canada. I'm all for having any tort you want as long as you have the room and the funds. Every tort should be housed outside at least in the warm months. Too many people get smaller species and thinks it's okay that the tortoise is only housed inside. Some of those same people will tell others that live in the northern states that we shouldn't have the larger species even though we can get them outside.
As mentioned, you could rehome your large tortoise but it's still going to be living in Canada so why not with you if you can afford to provide for it.

 

[wellington]

Just to clarify things, yes I think sulcatas (and bigger torts) shouldn't be sold in canada. Am I happy that I got one sully? Yes, because I WILL take good care off it. However, I am also not happy because I helped someone who sentence to death tens of torts every year because owning a sulcata in canada is kind of having a penguin in the sahara(not impossible, but would need tons of knowledge and money) which I know most people wont achieve. Btw every breeder should refer this forum to everyone it's sold to unless it's an experienced keeper...The thing is, I would have prefered that 99% tortoises of a certain specie don't suffer than me getting one and taking good care of it. That is my take...

I don't agree. It's not the breeders responsibility to know is you can provide or not. The person buying needs to be honest with themselves and know if they can or not. A sully can live perfectly happy in Canada. Do you know sullies have been known a lot to go out into the snow. There are a lot of large tortoises living in the cold states of the north. Done right and it's not that expensive and they can be just as happy.
I don't have a sully but I have leopards that live in a insulated heated shed.
Besides the old days of buying an animal face too face with the breeder is almost extinct. Everyone selling over the internet has taken that personal experience away. So it's harder and harder to know exactly who your selling too.

 

[Reptilony]

I don't agree. It's not the breeders responsibility to know is you can provide or not. The person buying needs to be honest with themselves and know if they can or not. A sully can live perfectly happy in Canada. Do you know sullies have been known a lot to go out into the snow. There are a lot of large tortoises living in the cold states of the north. Done right and it's not that expensive and they can be just as happy.
I don't have a sully but I have leopards that live in a insulated heated shed.
Besides the old days of buying an animal face too face with the breeder is almost extinct. Everyone selling over the internet has taken that personal experience away. So it's harder and harder to know exactly who your selling too.

I understand why you say that the buyer has all the responsabilities and I myself knew exactly what I was getting into. However I do not agree that the seller does not have responsabilities. Selling paper? Fine. But selling a living animal (if you care about it), I believe what is right is to make sure this animal is in good hand. (Even tho probably no breeders does that). Again, not trying to force that on anyone...

 

[Reptilony]

I'm sure some people won't agree, but in my opinion I think it should require some kind of permit to own any tortoise that grows larger than a Redfoot, especially Sulcatas. You would have to prove beforehand you have the proper living conditions for the tortoise for when it's an adult already setup to obtain the permit and acquiring the tortoise. I think this would ensure only responsible people who will be giving the tortoise what it needs will be owning one.

Perhaps a permit in certain location would be beneficial in my opinion...

 

[Reptilony]

I don't agree. It's not the breeders responsibility to know is you can provide or not. The person buying needs to be honest with themselves and know if they can or not. A sully can live perfectly happy in Canada. Do you know sullies have been known a lot to go out into the snow. There are a lot of large tortoises living in the cold states of the north. Done right and it's not that expensive and they can be just as happy.
I don't have a sully but I have leopards that live in a insulated heated shed.
Besides the old days of buying an animal face too face with the breeder is almost extinct. Everyone selling over the internet has taken that personal experience away. So it's harder and harder to know exactly who your selling too.

I am always curious to see how people winter proof their torts do you have any pictures of that shed?

 

[Jay Bagley]

Personally, and this is just my opinion. But I think the government already has too many hands in the cookie jar as it is. I also agree too many people rush into buying a Sulcata, without realizing how big it will get. But for someone to have to apply for a permit to own one, I don't necessarily agree with. Just because someone buys a smaller tortoise like a Red Foot, or a Russian, doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's going to be any better taken care of then the person who bought a large tortoise. I think it should come down to personal responsibility. Since I have joined here, I have seen many smaller species of torts that are not being properly cared for, or raised in the wrong living environment. I guess what I'm saying is whether it is a small tortoise or a large tortoise, either or in the wrong hands could be detrimental. I think the less time Big Brother spends micromanaging us, the better.

 

[theguy67]

I don't agree. It's not the breeders responsibility to know is you can provide or not. The person buying needs to be honest with themselves and know if they can or not. A sully can live perfectly happy in Canada. Do you know sullies have been known a lot to go out into the snow. There are a lot of large tortoises living in the cold states of the north. Done right and it's not that expensive and they can be just as happy.
I don't have a sully but I have leopards that live in a insulated heated shed.
Besides the old days of buying an animal face too face with the breeder is almost extinct. Everyone selling over the internet has taken that personal experience away. So it's harder and harder to know exactly who your selling too.

I think the majority of the responsibility should fall on the owner, but the breeder is not innocent here either. As a breeder, YOU are the one facilitating mating/incubation/rearing of hatchlings that other wise would not exist. Why do you think shelters are so strict when adopting out? This may not be a popular opinion, but (for the most part) these animals are primarily kept for our amusement, and not much else. There is little need to keep them in captivity.

And I think for those who are ignorant, research may not even cross their mind. You walk in a pet store and see a simple "turtle". You think to yourself "this can't be too hard". How can we warn them of the importance of educating if they are not even aware forums for reptiles exist?

 

[Reptilony]

Personally, and this is just my opinion. But I think the government already has too many hands in the cookie jar as it is. I also agree too many people rush into buying a Sulcata, without realizing how big it will get. But for someone to have to apply for a permit to own one, I don't necessarily agree with. Just because someone buys a smaller tortoise like a Red Foot, or a Russian, doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's going to be any better taken care of then the person who bought a large tortoise. I think it should come down to personal responsibility. Since I have joined here, I have seen many smaller species of torts that are not being properly cared for, or raised in the wrong living environment. I guess what I'm saying is whether it is a small tortoise or a large tortoise, either or in the wrong hands could be detrimental. I think the less time Big Brother spends micromanaging us, the better.

I agree that both small and big ones in wrong hand is no better. However it is more unlikely that someone take good care of a very big tortoise in very cold climate has this require very much money and time. Smaller species can be kept indoors better. I am only talking about big tortoise in very cold climates. It is not crazy to have a permit for an animal, in fact lots of exotic animals can only be kept with a permit. And yes I also believe "big brother" might not be the best to handle everything...

 

[theguy67]

Personally, and this is just my opinion. But I think the government already has too many hands in the cookie jar as it is. I also agree too many people rush into buying a Sulcata, without realizing how big it will get. But for someone to have to apply for a permit to own one, I don't necessarily agree with. Just because someone buys a smaller tortoise like a Red Foot, or a Russian, doesn't necessarily guarantee that it's going to be any better taken care of then the person who bought a large tortoise. I think it should come down to personal responsibility. Since I have joined here, I have seen many smaller species of torts that are not being properly cared for, or raised in the wrong living environment. I guess what I'm saying is whether it is a small tortoise or a large tortoise, either or in the wrong hands could be detrimental. I think the less time Big Brother spends micromanaging us, the better.

A permit might actually be a good idea,...and here's why.

You could easily make it a quick online course that is required to be taken and passed in order to apply for a permit with a set fee. This course could include a few informational videos that could potentially "wake up" the person who is expressing interest. They realize how much is involved, and are able to make an informed decision, rather than strolling through petco, and making an impulse purchase.

Sure, worst case scenario, they make it so difficult that most of us can't keep them.

 

[Jay Bagley]

Yep lol, bowing out of this one. Not saying anybody is right or wrong, that was just my opinion on the matter. I have to learn not to get in discussions before I have to leave for work lol. I think everybody is making good points, and I'm enjoying this thread.

 

[Reptilony]

A permit might actually be a good idea,...and here's why.

You could easily make it a quick online course that is required to be taken and passed in order to apply for a permit with a set fee. This course could include a few informational videos that could potentially "wake up" the person who is expressing interest. They realize how much is involved, and are able to make an informed decision, rather than strolling through petco, and making an impulse purchase.

Sure, worst case scenario, they make it so difficult that most of us can't keep them.

This is why I think It's a good idea too. The seller doesn't need to be responsible ( he better not start em dry) if he knows the buyer knows at leats what is it like to own a tortoise. Good thing this forum exist to help people afterwards.

 

[Reptilony]

I think the majority of the responsibility should fall on the owner, but the breeder is not innocent here either. As a breeder, YOU are the one facilitating mating/incubation/rearing of hatchlings that other wise would not exist. Why do you think shelters are so strict when adopting out? This may not be a popular opinion, but (for the most part) these animals are primarily kept for our amusement, and not much else. There is little need to keep them in captivity.

And I think for those who are ignorant, research may not even cross their mind. You walk in a pet store and see a simple "turtle". You think to yourself "this can't be too hard". How can we warn them of the importance of educating if they are not even aware forums for reptiles exist?

It's indeed hard to warn them... They might be used to own a cat(poor water, give brown food, pick up poop) and reptile keeping is a whole different world...

 

[theguy67]

It's indeed hard to warn them... They might be used to own a cat(poor water, give brown food, pick up poop) and reptile keeping is a whole different world...

Exactly. Tortoises can't possibly be more work than a cat, or dog? lol

I will admit, at least for me, once the "infrastructure" is complete (outdoor pen, indoor pen, night box, etc.), adult tortoises are rather low maintenance.

 

[theguy67]

Yep lol, bowing out of this one. Not saying anybody is right or wrong, that was just my opinion on the matter. I have to learn not to get in discussions before I have to leave for work lol. I think everybody is making good points, and I'm enjoying this thread.

Oh I was referring to all tortoises in general, and gave the ideal actions a permit would cause. On the other hand, a permit could just open the door for further restrictions (maybe even other animals) in the future, eventually shrinking the hobby as a whole. I don't exactly trust the government to do the right thing in this case.

 

[Tom]

A permit might actually be a good idea,...and here's why.

You could easily make it a quick online course that is required to be taken and passed in order to apply for a permit with a set fee. This course could include a few informational videos that could potentially "wake up" the person who is expressing interest. They realize how much is involved, and are able to make an informed decision, rather than strolling through petco, and making an impulse purchase.

Sure, worst case scenario, they make it so difficult that most of us can't keep them.

Right. Because more government intrusion solves every problem. The same way people with driver's licenses always do the right things and never drive poorly.

Requiring government permission to exercise our rights is not only ineffective, its against our very principles. I have to have government permission, a falconry license, to pursue falconry. The dummy that showed up to my ranch to do my equipment and mew inspection had no idea what a mew was, no idea how it was supposed to be built and no idea what the equipment was. I had to show her, teach her how to pronounce the names of the items (Aylmeri jesses…), and explain to her what the items were used for. And this was the person that was going to decide if it was okay for me to trap and train wild raptors, or not. You think it would be different for tortoises? Who makes the instructions and test question? Will this person read a tortoise book and think tortoises get all their water from their food and sulcatas live in a desert and they should live on sand? Will they say babies do better outside and should be fed romaine, but not iceberg? Who will enforce these tortoises laws? Who will implement this program, and who will need to be hired to cover the job they used to do?

More government helps no one and does not help the animals. Government "protection" often results in further decimation or extinction of the animal species in question. Look at the alligators in Louisiana. Peregrin falcon everywhere. CA and NV desert tortoises. Having freedom means we have to accept that stupid people might do stupid things. Stupid people doing stupid things is not a reason to take liberty away from everyone. Take the liberty away from the stupid person and leave everyone else alone. Take the liberty away from the government. They have a dismal track record.

 

[theguy67]

Right. Because more government intrusion solves every problem. The same way people with driver's licenses always do the right things and never drive poorly.

Requiring government permission to exercise our rights is not only ineffective, its against our very principles. I have to have government permission, a falconry license, to pursue falconry. The dummy that showed up to my ranch to do my equipment and mew inspection had no idea what a mew was, no idea how it was supposed to be built and no idea what the equipment was. I had to show her, teach her how to pronounce the names of the items (Aylmeri jesses…), and explain to her what the items were used for. And this was the person that was going to decide if it was okay for me to trap and train wild raptors, or not. You think it would be different for tortoises? Who makes the instructions and test question? Will this person read a tortoise book and think tortoises get all their water from their food and sulcatas live in a desert and they should live on sand? Will they say babies do better outside and should be fed romaine, but not iceberg? Who will enforce these tortoises laws? Who will implement this program, and who will need to be hired to cover the job they used to do?

More government helps no one and does not help the animals. Government "protection" often results in further decimation or extinction of the animal species in question. Look at the alligators in Louisiana. Peregrin falcon everywhere. CA and NV desert tortoises. Having freedom means we have to accept that stupid people might do stupid things. Stupid people doing stupid things is not a reason to take liberty away from everyone. Take the liberty away from the stupid person and leave everyone else alone. Take the liberty away from the government. They have a dismal track record.

Where did I say, or imply, government intrusion solves every problem? Providing a specific case where it MIGHT work does not imply such statement.

Your idea of "rights" seems interesting.

The only way to know if driver licenses "work" would be to take them away...and I don't really want to find out what happens if they did. Do you?

Sure there may be dummies, in your falconry example, but how many more do you think there would be if anyone could own a falcon?

You make good points in the remaining portion of your reply, such as enforcement and development.

HOWEVER,....Considering tortoises are not on the top of our governments' priority list, it would be easier in THEIR eyes just to ban them as pets.

Also my reply to Jay Bagley , before you were able to comment. " Oh I was referring to all tortoises in general, and gave the ideal actions a permit would cause. On the other hand, a permit could just open the door for further restrictions (maybe even other animals) in the future, eventually shrinking the hobby as a whole. I don't exactly trust the government to do the right thing in this case."

I should amend my first comment from "a permit might be a good idea" to "a permit COULD be a good idea", that is to say, in a perfect world (of course in that world there would be no need).