Dialed in

[Hortman81]

I bought my two cherryheads as hatchlings over ten years ago. Luckily they ended up being a pair and I’ve recently hatched 8 eggs. The last two seasons I had eggs but none viable.

They spend the winter in this water land tub that’s being upgraded as you can see. The new enclosure is 8’x3’x18”. The hatchlings are in the mini version. Summertime they move outside into very large habitats with water features.

 

[wellington]

Congrats
You should get one of the greenhouses in the picture to put over the enclosure for the babies. Will work better for holding humidity than the partially open top enclosure you are using now. You could put the whole enclosure inside the greenhouse or use the greenhouse by itself. This can be used inside, many of us do.

 

[Tom]

I bought my two cherryheads as hatchlings over ten years ago. Luckily they ended up being a pair and I’ve recently hatched 8 eggs. The last two seasons I had eggs but none viable.

They spend the winter in this water land tub that’s being upgraded as you can see. The new enclosure is 8’x3’x18”. The hatchlings are in the mini version. Summertime they move outside into very large habitats with water features.

Hello and welcome.

They should never be housed in pairs. Obviously, you have gotten away with it, but its really bad for both of them, and injury is likely at any time. We see it here with RFs and cherry heads all the time.

This species needs closed chamber enclosures, especially babies. There is no way to maintain the correct temperature and humidity with an open topped enclosure.

Not trying to make you mad. Just trying to help.

 

[Hortman81]

Congrats
You should get one of the greenhouses in the picture to put over the enclosure for the babies. Will work better for holding humidity than the partially open top enclosure you are using now. You could put the whole enclosure inside the greenhouse or use the greenhouse by itself. This can be used inside, many of us do.
View attachment 367401

They have never gotten a scratch nor have i seen any behavior that would warrant seperation. Who said not to keep them in pairs? Why did they say that? Everybody is different, every animal is different.

My reptile room has heaters/coolers and humidifiers/dehumidifiers electronically controlled. The canvas tarp works well but I am going to still frame out a wall with a door down the line.

I will be in the market for a greenhouse but that is because I'm horticulture man.

Hello and welcome.

They should never be housed in pairs. Obviously, you have gotten away with it, but its really bad for both of them, and injury is likely at any time. We see it here with RFs and cherry heads all the time.

This species needs closed chamber enclosures, especially babies. There is no way to maintain the correct temperature and humidity with an open topped enclosure.

Not trying to make you mad. Just trying to help.

 

[Hortman81]

Sorry if I posted my reply incorrectly. I'll get it right next time.

Paul

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

They have never gotten a scratch nor have i seen any behavior that would warrant seperation. Who said not to keep them in pairs? Why did they say that? Everybody is different, every animal is different.

My reptile room has heaters/coolers and humidifiers/dehumidifiers electronically controlled. The canvas tarp works well but I am going to still frame out a wall with a door down the line.

I will be in the market for a greenhouse but that is because I'm horticulture man.

View attachment 367423

That what experience of the others and nature tell us.
1. One of the dozens examples: a couple of weeks ago, after 15 years of living together, a male redfoot seriously injured female (this happened twice in a short period). You can do your own research on the forum for other examples.
2. While all animals are different, there are common behavioral traits among genuses and species. One of them is that tortoises are solitary animals. Redfoots are not an exclusion. When they meet each other in the wild they either mate or fight, nothing like "Howdy, bro, long time no see". And there is a third case - when they stumble upon a carrion or lots of ripe fruit under a fruit tree. They gather in group, eat what's available and then scatter again. Group behaviour differs from pair behaviour, it can work, given that a large territory is provided and group is carefully selected (and still sometimes it's necessary to separate a tortoise from the group).
3. We often misinterpret tortoise behaviour. We might think that sleeping together in a hide or "cuddling" in the corner are signs of peaceful co-existence. However it's just an opposite.
4. Some species who in the wild were "stuffed" in small areas (like Aldabras) may exhibit more tolerance to each other. But that's not really common.

 

[Hortman81]

Hello and welcome.

They should never be housed in pairs. Obviously, you have gotten away with it, but its really bad for both of them, and injury is likely at any time. We see it here with RFs and cherry heads all the time.

This species needs closed chamber enclosures, especially babies. There is no way to maintain the correct temperature and humidity with an open topped enclosure.

Not trying to make you mad. Just trying to help.

You'll be calling for my head if I ever pull the trigger on the two Aldabra babies I have always wanted.

I hope I didn't anger you either. I just think people need to realize there is not going to be one definitive answer when talking about the care of a living thing and what they start with will evolve as they learn from that living thing that they are now responsible for that 100% depends on them.

 

[Hortman81]

That what experience of the others and nature tell us.
1. One of the dozens examples: a couple of weeks ago, after 15 years of living together, a male redfoot seriously injured female (this happened twice in a short period). You can do your own research on the forum for other examples.
2. While all animals are different, there are common behavioral traits among genuses and species. One of them is that tortoises are solitary animals. Redfoots are not an exclusion. When they meet each other in the wild they either mate or fight, nothing like "Howdy, bro, long time no see". And there is a third case - when they stumble upon a carrion or lots of ripe fruit under a fruit tree. They gather in group, eat what's available and then scatter again. Group behaviour differs from pair behaviour, it can work, given that a large territory is provided and group is carefully selected (and still sometimes it's necessary to separate a tortoise from the group).
3. We often misinterpret tortoise behaviour. We might think that sleeping together in a hide or "cuddling" in the corner are signs of peaceful co-existence. However it's just an opposite.
4. Some species who in the wild were "stuffed" in small areas (like Aldabras) may exhibit more tolerance to each other. But that's not really common.

I have done my research in actual research and studying Taco and Alabaster for the last decade. Do you base the way you take care of your dogs on wolf behavior? Red foots have been farm raised for a very very long time. They were a spoil proof food item for ships long before they were pets. Same family that raised them for food is still raising them for pets.

 

[Hortman81]

I have done my research in actual research and studying Taco and Alabaster for the last decade. Do you base the way you take care of your dogs on wolf behavior? Red foots have been farm raised for a very very long time. They were a spoil proof food item for ships long before they were pets. Same family that raised them for food is still raising them for pets.

Being Hortman I work with a lot of people from South America.

 

[wellington]

They have never gotten a scratch nor have i seen any behavior that would warrant seperation. Who said not to keep them in pairs? Why did they say that? Everybody is different, every animal is different.

My reptile room has heaters/coolers and humidifiers/dehumidifiers electronically controlled. The canvas tarp works well but I am going to still frame out a wall with a door down the line.

I will be in the market for a greenhouse but that is because I'm horticulture man.













View attachment 367423

All the experience on here and common knowledge of them being a solitary animals. But that's okay, you know better. Unfortunately your poor tortoises will pay/are paying for it!!!

 

[Hortman81]

All the experience on here and common knowledge of them being a solitary animals. But that's okay, you know better. Unfortunately your poor tortoises will pay/are paying for it!!!

I got to go feed them their walmart brand cat food dumped directly upon their play sand substrate. Stupid little bastards...

Good day to you sir!

 

[wellington]

So not only living under stress, but will be getting blockages from the sand.
Hopefully you feed more than just cat food.
Good luck to them.

 

[Hortman81]

So not only living under stress, but will be getting blockages from the sand.
Hopefully you feed more than just cat food.
Good luck to them.

It was a joke

 

[wellington]

It was a joke

Lol a bad one. No tone of voice in typing lol so hard to tell.
You wouldn't believe how many would actually think that's okay to do.

 

[Hortman81]

Lol a bad one. No tone of voice in typing lol so hard to tell.
You wouldn't believe how many would actually think that's okay to do.

Those people probably shouldn't be responsible for another living creature. I realized dumbos might actually do that after reading what I wrote. My apologies.

 

[Tom]

They have never gotten a scratch nor have i seen any behavior that would warrant seperation. Who said not to keep them in pairs? Why did they say that? Everybody is different, every animal is different.

Basic biology and animal behavior says that. So do the dozens of examples right here on this site. Any time you have two animals together one will be dominant and one will be submissive. You can see this in animals as primitive as flatworms. In the case of tortoises, this situation causes long term stress that is bad for both of them. Can they survive it? Sure. In some cases they can, but that doesn't make it good for either of them. Pair dynamics are different than group dynamics. Many many arguments and discussions have been had over this subject over many years. You've been warned. I tried to help before there is a disaster and before that damage done is any worse. There is no point in have yet another long down out argument with another new member that doesn't want to hear it. You can read years of history, see dozens of examples, and make changes if you want. Or not.

The only time an open topped enclosure works is in the case of a reptile room where the whole room is heated and humidified. That appears to be the case for you, so that is good.

 

[Hortman81]

Basic biology and animal behavior says that. So do the dozens of examples right here on this site. Any time you have two animals together one will be dominant and one will be submissive. You can see this in animals as primitive as flatworms. In the case of tortoises, this situation causes long term stress that is bad for both of them. Can they survive it? Sure. In some cases they can, but that doesn't make it good for either of them. Pair dynamics are different than group dynamics. Many many arguments and discussions have been had over this subject over many years. You've been warned. I tried to help before there is a disaster and before that damage done is any worse. There is no point in have yet another long down out argument with another new member that doesn't want to hear it. You can read years of history, see dozens of examples, and make changes if you want. Or not.

The only time an open topped enclosure works is in the case of a reptile room where the whole room is heated and humidified. That appears to be the case for you, so that is good.

No No No

This conversation has become silly. Good Day

 

[Tom]

You'll be calling for my head if I ever pull the trigger on the two Aldabra babies I have always wanted.

I hope I didn't anger you either. I just think people need to realize there is not going to be one definitive answer when talking about the care of a living thing and what they start with will evolve as they learn from that living thing that they are now responsible for that 100% depends on them.

No, I won't be calling for your head, but I will tell you that is would be another terrible mistake and not good for the tortoises. Its bad enough stuffing adult CHs into small indoor enclosures over a frozen winter, there is no practical way to do this with tropical giants in your climate. The zoos do a miserable job of it, and it shows in their results.

Your tortoises are not different than other tortoises in this respect. They all need to eat and drink, they all need warmth, and they all share the same social biology.

You didn't anger me. I just think its sad for the animals when people don't understand these things and do things that are not good for the animals in their care. Its common for people to be upset and defensive when someone they don't even know tells them they are making a mistake that they don't even realize. That too is normal, typical behavior. I do it, everyone does it. But our goal here is to help people and their tortoises. We try to spread helpful info, experience based info, and prevent other people from falling into common pitfalls that we see over and over again. Another new member ignored this advice to separate her pair of cherry heads, insisting that her animals were fine and that the reputable breeder that sold them to her knew what he was talking about. Six weeks later she was back asking what to do because one had eaten the tail and back leg of the other. Some people have to learn the hard way. Some people never learn. I wish someone would have told me these things decades ago before I had to learn the hard way.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I have done my research in actual research and studying Taco and Alabaster for the last decade. Do you base the way you take care of your dogs on wolf behavior? Red foots have been farm raised for a very very long time. They were a spoil proof food item for ships long before they were pets. Same family that raised them for food is still raising them for pets.

In fact, yes, I would take into account wolf behaviour with any dog. They are still predators in the core.

Not to mention, that dogs have been carefully bred for thousands years to attenuate their wild behavior (thats about 750 generations raised in captivity). Tortoises... they are bred for their size, coloration, anything else but aggressiveness or social behaviour.

So that's an unfair comparison.

If you can share links to research papers on behavioral differences between captive bred and wild populations of tortoises - I'll be more than happy to learn.

And if you can share how do you train social behaviour and tolerance between your redfoots - that's going to be a breakthrough.

 

[Tom]

I have done my research in actual research and studying Taco and Alabaster for the last decade. Do you base the way you take care of your dogs on wolf behavior? Red foots have been farm raised for a very very long time. They were a spoil proof food item for ships long before they were pets. Same family that raised them for food is still raising them for pets.

Is your assertion then that RFs. are domesticated?

Of course I study wild canine behavior in an effort to better understand domestic canine behavior. Don't you?

And even if we did want to compare your wild animal example, and if we were to assume that RFs have been domesticated at these farms you mentioned, do domestic dogs not fight with each other? As a professional dog and wild animal trainers, I work with both domestic and wild animals daily, including dogs and wolves. And wolf hybrids too. I would argue that domestic animals fight MORE and worse than their wild counterparts. If wild canines fight and damage each other, the pack dies. If your dog gets into a fight on the street you take it to the vet and get it fixed up. This being the case, I'm not sure what you are hoping to imply by asserting that todays captive bred RFs in America are somehow behaviorally different than their wild counterparts in and around the Amazon region.