Dialed in

[Hortman81]

No, I won't be calling for your head, but I will tell you that is would be another terrible mistake and not good for the tortoises. Its bad enough stuffing adult CHs into small indoor enclosures over a frozen winter, there is no practical way to do this with tropical giants in your climate. The zoos do a miserable job of it, and it shows in their results.

Your tortoises are not different than other tortoises in this respect. They all need to eat and drink, they all need warmth, and they all share the same social biology.

You didn't anger me. I just think its sad for the animals when people don't understand these things and do things that are not good for the animals in their care. Its common for people to be upset and defensive when someone they don't even know tells them they are making a mistake that they don't even realize. That too is normal, typical behavior. I do it, everyone does it. But our goal here is to help people and their tortoises. We try to spread helpful info, experience based info, and prevent other people from falling into common pitfalls that we see over and over again. Another new member ignored this advice to separate her pair of cherry heads, insisting that her animals were fine and that the reputable breeder that sold them to her knew what he was talking about. Six weeks later she was back asking what to do because one had eaten the tail and back leg of the other. Some people have to learn the hard way. Some people never learn. I wish someone would have told me these things decades ago before I had to learn the hard way.

So what are your credentials? Why are you right and I’m wrong?

 

[Hortman81]

So what are your credentials? Why are you right and I’m wrong?

I have to be doing something right.

 

[Hortman81]

Is your assertion then that RFs. are domesticated?

Of course I study wild canine behavior in an effort to better understand domestic canine behavior. Don't you?

And even if we did want to compare your wild animal example, and if we were to assume that RFs have been domesticated at these farms you mentioned, do domestic dogs not fight with each other? As a professional dog and wild animal trainers, I work with both domestic and wild animals daily, including dogs and wolves. And wolf hybrids too. I would argue that domestic animals fight MORE and worse than their wild counterparts. If wild canines fight and damage each other, the pack dies. If your dog gets into a fight on the street you take it to the vet and get it fixed up. This being the case, I'm not sure what you are hoping to imply by asserting that today’s captive bred RFs in America are somehow behaviorally different than their wild counterparts in and around the Amazon region.

Sorry I have been silent. Kids picture day is today. Had to take them to get new clothes last night.

I asked earlier and may have done it incorrectly but I wanted to know about your credentials. What tortoises do you have or had? How long have you had them? I learned more my first year working than all four years of college because it was real world experience.

This afternoon I’m going to message 10 of the more well known keepers/breeders of red foots and ask them their opinion on keeping them in pairs. Just a very generic, not steering them in either direction question and we can see what happens.

 

[Yvonne G]

Sorry I have been silent. Kids picture day is today. Had to take them to get new clothes last night.

I asked earlier and may have done it incorrectly but I wanted to know about your credentials. What tortoises do you have or had? How long have you had them? I learned more my first year working than all four years of college because it was real world experience.

This afternoon I’m going to message 10 of the more well known keepers/breeders of red foots and ask them their opinion on keeping them in pairs. Just a very generic, not steering them in either direction question and we can see what happens.

Several years ago Tom was raising sulcatas, and sulcatas make LOTS of babies. . . over 100 a year is on the low side. Because he had access to so many babies he was able to do side by side experiments - raise them with humidity. . . raise them in closed chambers. . . raise them dry. . . experiment with lights. . . Raise them in pairs, groups, etc. and through it all he shared his results with us right out in the open on the forum - both good and bad. So when Tom talks turtles he generally knows of which he speaks!

(and on a side note Tom trains animals for movies and TV.)

 

[Tom]

I asked earlier and may have done it incorrectly but I wanted to know about your credentials. What tortoises do you have or had? How long have you had them? I learned more my first year working than all four years of college because it was real world experience.

This is a fair question and I will answer it, but the answer really doesn't matter in regards to what we are talking about. I'm not sharing an opinion that I have formed over my years of tortoise keeping. I'm am sharing a biological fact about the pair thing. Likewise, it really doesn't matter what your 10 experts have to say, even if they agree with me. If you want an "expert" opinion, ask all the RFs that have been chewed up over the years because someone kept them as a pair and asserted it was fine.

Here is my resumé:
-I got my first box turtle in 1979.
-Started working in the reptile and fish section of a pet store in 1986, where I cared for all the turtles and tortoises, including RFs.
-Got my first sulcata and leopard tortoises in 1991.
-Continued working in pet stores as a regular employee and a manager until I went off to college in 1994. I maintained my own ever-changing collection of reptiles fish and birds during that time.
-Began the Exotic Animal Training and Management program at Moorpark College in 1994.
-Graduated in 1996 with a degree in Wildlife Education, and another in Wildlife Behavior Management. I learned more about behavior and training in my first 6 months in the business than I didi in two years of college.
-Began my career training all sorts of animals for the film industry in 1996. Dogs, cats, snakes, rhinos, vultures, ravens, rats, cockroaches, camels, horses, giraffe, chimps, orangutans, baboons, ostrich, emu, alpaca, sloth, raccoons, elephants, foxes, coyotes, wolves, servals, bobcats, lions, tigers, and bears, oh my... and tortoises. The list is endless, and still going.
-Won my first two National Championships with two different dogs in two different classes in a protection dog sport called PSA. Won more titles each year after that for several years.
-Began growth experiments with tortoises in 2007-2008 because I finally realized that the conventional wisdom from all the known "experts", vets, breeders, and book writers, was all wrong after many many failures in spite of doing everything "they" said was right.
-Observed tortoises in the wild and in private collections, literally all over the world from 1996-current day.
-Hatched my own sulcatas from adults that I had raised from hatchings in 2010.
-Began hatching eggs from several species and doing side-by-side experiments with all of them changing one variable at a time in 2010-2011. Mostly sulcatas and leopards, but also several others. These experiments continue to this day.
-Through these experiments, and after hatching 200+ babies a year of several species for many years, I developed the best methods to date for starting hatchings and raising babies. I say "to date" because we are still learning, and I'm ready to adjust my methods at any time if new better info becomes available.
-I don't share my list of animals publicly for a number of reasons, but I've had just about all of them at one time or another over the years. Easier to list what I haven't had: I have not worked with Egyptians, spiders, ploughshares, Indotestudo, or hingebacks. I've had hands on all the others at one time or another. I keep around 50 at any given time and have babies coming and going constantly.
-Became a licensed Apprentice falconer in 2014.
-Became a Master falconer in 2021.
-Became a bee keeper last year, and working toward certification as a master beekeeper now.
-SCUBA certified since 1992. NAUI OW1, OW2, PADI Advanced, Rescue Diver, Underwater/Digital Photography, Peak Performance Buoyancy, and Altitude Diver certified. I just need two more classes for Master SCUBA diver certification.
-Founding Board Member of the Galapagos Tortoise Alliance.
-I currently own a 5 acre ranch that is covered from one end to the other with tortoise pens, as well as many other animals, and planning to acquire two adjacent 10 and 23 acre ranches in the next couple of years.

That is what occurs to me off the top of my head. Questions are welcome.