Desert Tortoises in the UK!!! Help!!!

[Geralt]

I've ended up in a confusing predicament housing 2 baby desert tortoises in the UK. It's a complicated story how we ended up with them and how they got here in the first place but we have no idea how to care for them and are trying our best to research and look into caring for them as they grow.

I hope someone can offer some guidance or suggestions as what action to take for them. I'll try outline our equipment and procedures.

We have 2 desert tortoises, 1 male and another is female, which I've heard is problematic. However, we do not have space for a desperate enclosure atm.

They are very small, Idk how old and we have bought a roughly 34" by 30" enclosure for them with a heat lamp, a water bowl and a place to eat. One side of the enclosure is hovering over a radiator that gets that side warm while the other side can be cooler. We try to keep the heating in the house to keep them warm as often as we can.

For UV we try to let them gain natural sunlight when it is sunny for about 20-30mins. It's not that hot and it can be windy so we hold them near an open window and shield them from the wind and let them gain some sunlight, occasionally holding them near a radiator to warm them up if they become too cold. It's clearly very clunky and time consuming since I have no other way to allow them to gain sunlight in the cold temperatures atm.

We have a water bowl they can climb into and cook down or drink from when needs, but I try to put them in water myself once a day. I don't know how necessary this is, but I do it just incase.

Their diet consists more recently of weeds in our garden that they like, we wash and prepare them and they enjoy nibbling away at them. Atm we haven't had much variety so it's been a few veggies mixed in with weeds and grasses. Carrots, lettuce and used to be cabbage until I found out it wasn't good for them in excess. Occasionally we give them small apple slices. I heard boiled egg shells are good for calcium however idk if this is appropriate for a baby??

I realise I will likely need to be more specific with my temperatures, humidity and substrate by investing in a heat gun etc. I've seen various opinions about heat lamps, but again I'm not entirely sure. I'm gonna attach some photos of our set up (it's not that elaborate).

Finally, tortoise health. Again I'm totally new and so this is all slightly overwhelming, these tortoises were practically dumped on us and so it's hard to get everything together and know everything. I'll take pictures of there shells incase anyone notices any health issues. Their shells look quite nice and I don't see any issues. There were a few bumps I could see on the shells, Idk if this is normal. Also, are there any issues I should look at for?

(the one in the corner is the female, the other is the male)

If anyone has any other advice if suggestions please feel free to offer them. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is correct or sustainable for them. Particularly for when they get older too, it's the UK and it's certainly not hot. What should I do when indoor enclosure is no longer feasible?

 

[Ink]

@Yvonne G should be able to help you. Welcome to the forum.

 

[Lyn W]

Hi and welcome.
Sounds like you have an emergency on your hands!
There's a lot more to learn about keeping torts than you think but you are in the best place for up to date advice.

I know you are trying to do your best for them so please read the caresheet in this N American tort thread.

This link will also help you with all the do's and don'ts and explain about, heat, lighting temps humidity etc

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

If you follow the advice in them as closely as possible your torts should thrive. but ask as many questions as you like. There are many DT owners here who will be happy to help. Some are very straight speaking, but all have the best interests of torts at heart,

Getting the temps right is very important for day and night other wise you'll end up with health problems like respiratory infections which can be expensive to treat and often fatal.

As well as a basking flood lamp for the day (spots and halogen bulbs are too intense), you will also need a CHE run through a thermostat for night, (they just give heat because torts need darkness to sleep and the thermostat will keep the temps even and make sure the torts don't overheat)
UVB does not travel through glass so even in the summer, sun through windows won't be beneficial to the torts - you definitely need a UVB tube T5 HO kit - Arcadia is a good make.
Pet shops know little about tort care so in spite of what they try to sell you. avoid the all-in-one Mercury Vapour lamps as these have been known to damage tort shells and the curly cfl sort can cause eye problems.
I would swap the water dish for a shallow terracotta plant saucer and sink it level with the substrate - it would be less slippery for little feet.

As they are so small it may not be possible to tell what sex they are for sure yet so you may have m/m, f/f or m/f on your hands, but you're right that torts should never be housed in pairs whatever the gender because of issues with dominance and bullying which could lead to stress, illness, injury and even death at the most extreme. I don't know if DTs are more tolerant of other torts, but most species are territorial and don't like company so will need separate enclosures. When sexually mature the male will constantly harass the female to breed and make her life a misery so separate spaces are essential.

Hopefully some DT keepers will chip in soon to help you give these two happy and healthy lives.

It can be expensive to set up at first but it will save you a lot in vet bills so well worth it.
Good luck

 

[Geralt]

Hi and welcome.
Sounds like you have an emergency on your hands!
There's a lot more to learn about keeping torts than you think but you are in the best place for up to date advice.

I know you are trying to do your best for them so please read the caresheet in this N American tort thread.

This link will also help you with all the do's and don'ts and explain about, heat, lighting temps humidity etc

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

If you follow the advice in them as closely as possible your torts should thrive. but ask as many questions as you like. There are many DT owners here who will be happy to help. Some are very straight speaking, but all have the best interests of torts at heart,

Getting the temps right is very important for day and night other wise you'll end up with health problems like respiratory infections which can be expensive to treat and often fatal.

As well as a basking flood lamp for the day (spots and halogen bulbs are too intense), you will also need a CHE run through a thermostat for night, (they just give heat because torts need darkness to sleep and the thermostat will keep the temps even and make sure the torts don't overheat)
UVB does not travel through glass so even in the summer, sun through windows won't be beneficial to the torts - you definitely need a UVB tube T5 HO kit - Arcadia is a good make.
Pet shops know little about tort care so in spite of what they try to sell you. avoid the all-in-one Mercury Vapour lamps as these have been known to damage tort shells and the curly cfl sort can cause eye problems.
I would swap the water dish for a shallow terracotta plant saucer and sink it level with the substrate - it would be less slippery for little feet.

As they are so small it may not be possible to tell what sex they are for sure yet so you may have m/m, f/f or m/f on your hands, but you're right that torts should never be housed in pairs whatever the gender because of issues with dominance and bullying which could lead to stress, illness, injury and even death at the most extreme. I don't know if DTs are more tolerant of other torts, but most species are territorial and don't like company so will need separate enclosures. When sexually mature the male will constantly harass the female to breed and make her life a misery so separate spaces are essential.

Hopefully some DT keepers will chip in soon to help you give these two happy and healthy lives.

It can be expensive to set up at first but it will save you a lot in vet bills so well worth it.
Good luck

Thank you so much for the quick and thorough response! It sounds very welcoming here with lots of experience to seek advice from.

I'll be sure to read into link you dropped and invest into the equipment you've mentioned. These tortoises do definitely sound like a challenge but hopefully I'll be able to provide them a space to thrive in.

Also, if it isn't possible to house a separate enclosure due to space... What would you recommend?

Thanks again

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't think those are desert tortoises. If they came from the U.S. they MAY be Texas tortoises. Desert tortoises aren't that round. You can follow the guidelines on the Greek tortoise care sheet. Looks like they are already starting to pyramid, so you're keeping them too dry. The substrate needs to be moistened. Can I see their legs and the underside?

 

[Tom]

I've ended up in a confusing predicament housing 2 baby desert tortoises in the UK. It's a complicated story how we ended up with them and how they got here in the first place but we have no idea how to care for them and are trying our best to research and look into caring for them as they grow.

I hope someone can offer some guidance or suggestions as what action to take for them. I'll try outline our equipment and procedures.

We have 2 desert tortoises, 1 male and another is female, which I've heard is problematic. However, we do not have space for a desperate enclosure atm.

They are very small, Idk how old and we have bought a roughly 34" by 30" enclosure for them with a heat lamp, a water bowl and a place to eat. One side of the enclosure is hovering over a radiator that gets that side warm while the other side can be cooler. We try to keep the heating in the house to keep them warm as often as we can.

For UV we try to let them gain natural sunlight when it is sunny for about 20-30mins. It's not that hot and it can be windy so we hold them near an open window and shield them from the wind and let them gain some sunlight, occasionally holding them near a radiator to warm them up if they become too cold. It's clearly very clunky and time consuming since I have no other way to allow them to gain sunlight in the cold temperatures atm.

We have a water bowl they can climb into and cook down or drink from when needs, but I try to put them in water myself once a day. I don't know how necessary this is, but I do it just incase.

Their diet consists more recently of weeds in our garden that they like, we wash and prepare them and they enjoy nibbling away at them. Atm we haven't had much variety so it's been a few veggies mixed in with weeds and grasses. Carrots, lettuce and used to be cabbage until I found out it wasn't good for them in excess. Occasionally we give them small apple slices. I heard boiled egg shells are good for calcium however idk if this is appropriate for a baby??

I realise I will likely need to be more specific with my temperatures, humidity and substrate by investing in a heat gun etc. I've seen various opinions about heat lamps, but again I'm not entirely sure. I'm gonna attach some photos of our set up (it's not that elaborate).

Finally, tortoise health. Again I'm totally new and so this is all slightly overwhelming, these tortoises were practically dumped on us and so it's hard to get everything together and know everything. I'll take pictures of there shells incase anyone notices any health issues. Their shells look quite nice and I don't see any issues. There were a few bumps I could see on the shells, Idk if this is normal. Also, are there any issues I should look at for?

(the one in the corner is the female, the other is the male)

If anyone has any other advice if suggestions please feel free to offer them. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is correct or sustainable for them. Particularly for when they get older too, it's the UK and it's certainly not hot. What should I do when indoor enclosure is no longer feasible?

I agree with Yvonne's assessment. Those are not Gopherus agassizii, aka "desert tortoises". Those appear to be greek tortoises, Testudo graeca from what I can see in the pictures. Some of the greek tortoise subspecies come from arid regions, and that may be where the confusion comes in. Its not a "desert tortoise" but its is a tortoise species that comes from a desert-type region. This is why Latin names are important.

Also, sexes cannot normally be discerned at this size. They have to be closer to maturity.

If you don't have the space to house them separately, find someone else who can house one of them. It is bad for their health to live together as a pair. The chronic stress is enough to make them sick or kill them.

They need the correct heating and lighting, temperatures, and a damp substrate immediately. Daily soaks will also help to rehydrate them. Be aware that most of the info for housing them online and from vets or pet shops will be all the same old wrong info. Read the threads that Lyn linked for the correct care info.

 

[TammyJ]

Welcome to the forum! You came to the best possible place to get the best possible help! Beautiful little tortoises.

 

[zovick]

I've ended up in a confusing predicament housing 2 baby desert tortoises in the UK. It's a complicated story how we ended up with them and how they got here in the first place but we have no idea how to care for them and are trying our best to research and look into caring for them as they grow.

I hope someone can offer some guidance or suggestions as what action to take for them. I'll try outline our equipment and procedures.

We have 2 desert tortoises, 1 male and another is female, which I've heard is problematic. However, we do not have space for a desperate enclosure atm.

They are very small, Idk how old and we have bought a roughly 34" by 30" enclosure for them with a heat lamp, a water bowl and a place to eat. One side of the enclosure is hovering over a radiator that gets that side warm while the other side can be cooler. We try to keep the heating in the house to keep them warm as often as we can.

For UV we try to let them gain natural sunlight when it is sunny for about 20-30mins. It's not that hot and it can be windy so we hold them near an open window and shield them from the wind and let them gain some sunlight, occasionally holding them near a radiator to warm them up if they become too cold. It's clearly very clunky and time consuming since I have no other way to allow them to gain sunlight in the cold temperatures atm.

We have a water bowl they can climb into and cook down or drink from when needs, but I try to put them in water myself once a day. I don't know how necessary this is, but I do it just incase.

Their diet consists more recently of weeds in our garden that they like, we wash and prepare them and they enjoy nibbling away at them. Atm we haven't had much variety so it's been a few veggies mixed in with weeds and grasses. Carrots, lettuce and used to be cabbage until I found out it wasn't good for them in excess. Occasionally we give them small apple slices. I heard boiled egg shells are good for calcium however idk if this is appropriate for a baby??

I realise I will likely need to be more specific with my temperatures, humidity and substrate by investing in a heat gun etc. I've seen various opinions about heat lamps, but again I'm not entirely sure. I'm gonna attach some photos of our set up (it's not that elaborate).

Finally, tortoise health. Again I'm totally new and so this is all slightly overwhelming, these tortoises were practically dumped on us and so it's hard to get everything together and know everything. I'll take pictures of there shells incase anyone notices any health issues. Their shells look quite nice and I don't see any issues. There were a few bumps I could see on the shells, Idk if this is normal. Also, are there any issues I should look at for?

(the one in the corner is the female, the other is the male)

If anyone has any other advice if suggestions please feel free to offer them. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is correct or sustainable for them. Particularly for when they get older too, it's the UK and it's certainly not hot. What should I do when indoor enclosure is no longer feasible?

What makes you think that they are Desert Tortoises? Were you specifically told they were Desert Tortoises from the US or simply that they were from "a desert" environment?

I agree with @Yvonne G that they do not look like Desert Tortoises from the US. Personally, I think the "desert" of their origin may well be in Africa.

They could be light colored Egyptian Tortoises: "Egyptian tortoises are no bigger than baked potatoes, and are native to the desert that fringes the southern shore of the Mediterranean Sea."

Or possibly another Testudo species from North Africa, such as the Golden Greek Tortoise.

More information on their origin is needed to ensure that you provide the proper care for these animals. What else can you determine from the person from whom you received them (or their original owner if you received them from a third party such as a rescue group)?

Also more pictures would be quite helpful as Yvonne mentioned. The front legs and the bottom shell would be a good start.

Thank you and good luck.

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Geralt .... Hello and Welcome .... get ready for a wild ride if you would like to keep these 2. It's not hard but will take your time and attention, especially the details. Torts that small are fragile in my opinion and take a bigger chunk of your time. I am NO expert learning as I go just as you will be doing, when it feels overwhelming just remember how much you have already learned. If you jumped into being a Diesel mechanic there would be some frustration, so just remember once you learn it NO ONE can take that from you. If you do stick this out you will find such satisfaction from being one of the rare people that DOES know how to care for tortoises. To walk into the pet store and tell them ...Uhhh No that is not right, or even help a chap out in the pet store that might be interested in buying one. I truly wish you the best, and taking in a fellow creature on this planet that is in need of basic CARE and providing that .... No other feeling compares.

 

[Lyn W]

Thank you so much for the quick and thorough response! It sounds very welcoming here with lots of experience to seek advice from.

I'll be sure to read into link you dropped and invest into the equipment you've mentioned. These tortoises do definitely sound like a challenge but hopefully I'll be able to provide them a space to thrive in.

Also, if it isn't possible to house a separate enclosure due to space... What would you recommend?

Thanks again

Looks like the ID of the species is wrong and believe me Yvonne, Tom and Zovick know exactly what their talking about. Yvonne said to use the Greek caresheet rather than the DT and you'll find that in the Mediterranean/Temperate section of the species specific thread - it's also included in the the other link.
If you post the other pics that have been requested they may be able to give a more definite ID.
As for space problems then I think you will have to rehome one of them. I suppose there are ways such as two stacked large vivs while they are small but you would still need 2 sets of lamps etc - depends on your budget really. Do you have outside space for the warmer months because as they grow, even the juvenile/adults of the smaller species need a minimum of about 1.25 x 1.5 m (4 x 8 feet) space.
You'll find www.thetortoisetable.org.uk useful because it's a good guide for tort safe plants/food and helps ID safe weeds.

 

[Geralt]

I don't think those are desert tortoises. If they came from the U.S. they MAY be Texas tortoises. Desert tortoises aren't that round. You can follow the guidelines on the Greek tortoise care sheet. Looks like they are already starting to pyramid, so you're keeping them too dry. The substrate needs to be moistened. Can I see their legs and the underside?

For sure, I'll attach some pictures of them. We've tried our best to identify them from the available information online, their shells were a lot more dull when we initially got them but the lines have become darker within a few weeks.

They were purchased in Morocco and little information is known about what species they were. From every picture of baby Greek tortoises I've seen online, they seemed very different but ofc that must just be my lack of experience.

 

[Geralt]

I agree with Yvonne's assessment. Those are not Gopherus agassizii, aka "desert tortoises". Those appear to be greek tortoises, Testudo graeca from what I can see in the pictures. Some of the greek tortoise subspecies come from arid regions, and that may be where the confusion comes in. Its not a "desert tortoise" but its is a tortoise species that comes from a desert-type region. This is why Latin names are important.

Also, sexes cannot normally be discerned at this size. They have to be closer to maturity.

If you don't have the space to house them separately, find someone else who can house one of them. It is bad for their health to live together as a pair. The chronic stress is enough to make them sick or kill them.

They need the correct heating and lighting, temperatures, and a damp substrate immediately. Daily soaks will also help to rehydrate them. Be aware that most of the info for housing them online and from vets or pet shops will be all the same old wrong info. Read the threads that Lyn linked for the correct care info.

Thank you for the response! I've attached some more pictures as a reply to Yvonne. I hope they are helpful in discerning their species

I will most likely have to find a home for one of the tortoises.

 

[Geralt]

What makes you think that they are Desert Tortoises? Were you specifically told they were Desert Tortoises from the US or simply that they were from "a desert" environment?

I agree with @Yvonne G that they do not look like Desert Tortoises from the US. Personally, I think the "desert" of their origin may well be in Africa.

They could be light colored Egyptian Tortoises: "Egyptian tortoises are no bigger than baked potatoes, and are native to the desert that fringes the southern shore of the Mediterranean Sea."

Or possibly another Testudo species from North Africa, such as the Golden Greek Tortoise.

More information on their origin is needed to ensure that you provide the proper care for these animals. What else can you determine from the person from whom you received them (or their original owner if you received them from a third party such as a rescue group)?

Also more pictures would be quite helpful as Yvonne mentioned. The front legs and the bottom shell would be a good start.

Thank you and good luck.

Thank you for your response, I've posted more pictures as a reply to Yvonne if they help with the species identification.

It's definitely been hard trying to identify them, we don't know who the seller was and the previous owner didn't ask either... So it became a task of researching to try to figure out their species and most signs to my understanding pointed to desert. Unfortunately, all we know of their origin is that they were purchased in Morocco.

 

[zovick]

Thank you for your response, I've posted more pictures as a reply to Yvonne if they help with the species identification.

It's definitely been hard trying to identify them, we don't know who the seller was and the previous owner didn't ask either... So it became a task of researching to try to figure out their species and most signs to my understanding pointed to desert. Unfortunately, all we know of their origin is that they were purchased in Morocco.

There is a subspecies of Greek Tortoise called the "Moroccan Tortoise", Testudo gracea marrokensis. It is very likely that your tortoises are examples of this tortoise or possibly, though somewhat less likely, the so called "Golden Greek Tortoise", Testudo graeca terrestris.

To my mind, the only other possibility would be the Egyptian Tortoise, Testudo kleinmanni, but they are very rare and the likelihood is quite minimal that they are that species.

 

[Sarah2020]

I suggest you read the link shared, check the set up and make changes. As they are small try to plan 3 soaks a week in a high sided container similar to a washing up bowl but used for tortoise only. Warm shallow water for around 30 mins will really boost their hydration and health. Over time they may fight or one will be dominated by the other. If another enc is a no, then you may have to find a local reptile shop and surrender one just as an idea. An outside enclosure for good summer days is also beneficial but needs a plan .
Ask questions.

 

[HermanniChris]

To chime in, those are in fact not desert tortoises. As already stated by a few, they are a Testudo graeca subspecies. Certainly not any other Testudo. They could be the Moroccan tortoise (Testudo graeca marokkensis), but given the faint dark central spot on each carapace scute that I believe I’m seeing, that would more than likely mean they are different subspecies like Testudo graeca terrestris. Terrestris are also more widely bred, which makes sense. If you wet the animals down and retake photos, a more positive ID will be possible.

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the response! I've attached some more pictures as a reply to Yvonne. I hope they are helpful in discerning their species

I will most likely have to find a home for one of the tortoises.

Luckily, care, temperatures and diet are all very similar for all of the species in question. This care sheet will guide you:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Geralt]

There is a subspecies of Greek Tortoise called the "Moroccan Tortoise", Testudo gracea marrokensis. It is very likely that your tortoises are examples of this tortoise or possibly, though somewhat less likely, the so called "Golden Greek Tortoise", Testudo graeca terrestris.

To my mind, the only other possibility would be the Egyptian Tortoise, Testudo kleinmanni, but they are very rare and the likelihood is quite minimal that they are that species.

Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of that Moroccan species. I definitely see a strong resemblance from images online and the descriptions of the dots gradually fading in as they get older. When we first had them, the dots were hardly visible. This is very insightful and it's also comforting knowing that they don't grow as large as a desert tortoise!

Thanks

 

[Geralt]

I suggest you read the link shared, check the set up and make changes. As they are small try to plan 3 soaks a week in a high sided container similar to a washing up bowl but used for tortoise only. Warm shallow water for around 30 mins will really boost their hydration and health. Over time they may fight or one will be dominated by the other. If another enc is a no, then you may have to find a local reptile shop and surrender one just as an idea. An outside enclosure for good summer days is also beneficial but needs a plan .
Ask questions.

Thanks for the response.

Yes I will read up on it as soon as I get the chance, I'm quite confident from the abundance of corrections that they are Greek tortoises and not desert tortoises as I have mistaken.

Would it harm their health in anyway if I soaked them daily? It's what I've done up till now.

Also, the water bowl I have usually gets quite cold quickly, does it need to be warm and is it correct to assume they will hydrate enough themselves or should I encourage them to drink at any particular time i.e before/after basking, after waking etc.

If I find myself lost, I'll be sure to ask. I appreciate the support on this forum it's very welcoming and thorough.

 

[zovick]

Thanks for the response.

Yes I will read up on it as soon as I get the chance, I'm quite confident from the abundance of corrections that they are Greek tortoises and not desert tortoises as I have mistaken.

Would it harm their health in anyway if I soaked them daily? It's what I've done up till now.

Also, the water bowl I have usually gets quite cold quickly, does it need to be warm and is it correct to assume they will hydrate enough themselves or should I encourage them to drink at any particular time i.e before/after basking, after waking etc.

If I find myself lost, I'll be sure to ask. I appreciate the support on this forum it's very welcoming and thorough.

Soaking young tortoises (of virtually every species) daily is actually recommended, so please continue to do so.

Good luck with them!