continuation of hibernation from the Hermann's forum

[CactusVinnie]

[split] keep hermanns indoors or outdoors for winter

Yvonne,
Of course we debated with respect, no use to be sharp or rude, since that demonstrates nothing. I was too very nice impressed of the friendly attitude and respect, shown even by experienced keepers here. Lucky me not meeting the "volatiles" LOL!
About moving the discusion: please excuse me, but I don't know where specifically. "Hibernation for Testudo" should be the most appropriate, and if you could copy this debate from the point you consider and paste it to the tail of that topic, it would be the best, in my opinion. If you allow me, I would do it myself. Until then, I will continue here.

GB,
Yes, not many old tortoises in captivity, and age is difficult to guess- from the stage of leveled growth rings, it remains only the degree of damage accumulated with age, to approximate.

I don't find brumation risky, if the tortoises have a proper enclosure, with diggable soil and excess moisture protection- or just letting them to prepare and, after they decide to remain underground, digging them up and placed in all kind of hibernacula you prepared for them, including fridge.

No, I don't find hypocritical what you do, but playing safe. In your humid area, it's risky indeed. But I don't think the Indoor team will freeze to death- why do you say that? Are they not digging at the right time? I don't think that they miss the "signals" of winter. Please explain more!

I received an old captive T. ibera, and after spending the whole season outdoors, she was able to digg herself down right before -4...-5*C morning arrive! She is very old, and spent at least 9 years in tropical regime, plus an unknown interval before.
Her first "brumation" after receiving her in last December started in... February, and was only 6 weeks long. Then outdoors. I wanted to offer her even a shortened brumation, to "reboot" her system, because a full one seemed quite risky, since her previous conditions were not quite the best way to strengthen an animal's health. Her breath even smelled like tobacco! Now she quitted !

Do you think the CB's kinda forgotten how to prepare for brumation? Even so, I think that they can be teached, and having the first brumation under close inspection, in a fridge or any easy to check variant. Then, next year, they will surely know what to do.

Tortoise,
Where are you living? If your Hermanni lives outdoor, and it's strong and fit, you can try a 3 months brumation after careful preparing. If you want details, I can write them, it's a simple scheme. Better would be if let alone until it burries by itself, and then recover it and brumate under controlled conditions- if outdoors it's not a choice.

Cheers!

T.h. boettgeri and T. ibera- interesting field observations and conservative actions in Bulgaria:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Useful-LINKS#axzz1dkobQY1p

... especially here, brumation infos from SE-Bulgaria:
http://www.geachelonia.org/Attachments/2en.pdf

You will be surely impressed, very interesting.

 

[Tortoise]

Hibernation-continued

Hi
I was wanting to reply to cactusvinnies questions to me on a different thread so thought i had better start a new thread in the right forum-hopefully this is ok?

QUOTE
Tortoise,
Where are you living? If your Hermanni lives outdoor, and it's strong and fit, you can try a 3 months brumation after careful preparing. If you want details, I can write them, it's a simple scheme. Better would be if let alone until it burries by itself, and then recover it and brumate under controlled conditions- if outdoors it's not a choice.

Cheers!

T.h. boettgeri and T. ibera- interesting field observations and conservative actions in Bulgaria:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Usef...z1dkobQY1p

... especially here, brumation infos from SE-Bulgaria:
http://www.geachelonia.org/Attachments/2en.pdf

You will be surely impressed, very interesting.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...s-or-outdoors-for-winter?page=2#ixzz1dnPTEoxc


In response to your question cactusvinnie
I live in Manitoba Canada.It is too cold to consider hibernation outdoors. I used to have a Hermanns tortoise whilst living in the UK who hibernated every year from the age of 4 yrs up to his passing.(long sad story but nothing to do with hibernation)He did very well. We kept him no hotter than 5 degrees and weighed him every week., We aimed for no more than a 10% weight loss, he never lost anywhere close to that and on waking him up, he would be soaked in warm water and was up and eating within an hour or so of hibernation. It worked very well. On arrival to Canada we continued his hibernation and used the cold room, again it was very effective but I think if I was hibernating again I would use a fridge as the temps are more controllable. He was put into a small custom built wooden box that we screwed shut. It had a carpet base and air holes-it was what he was shipped in from UK to Canada.

I would love to hear your recommendations regardless as I am open to learning new ways and continue to learn about tortoises and enjoy getting new information. My baby Hermanns are only 7/8 mths old and very small currently but healthy.

Thanks for your input.

 

[CactusVinnie]

RE: keep hermanns indoors or outdoors for winter

GB, I don't know how to take your reply... if it's about only about "hijacking", it's ok, but I hope we can discuss and exchange opinions after Yvonne will paste this thread where it belongs. But I don't get why "debate", instead of, simply, debate? Does it look like anything else?? It was ok, in my opinion.

 

[GBtortoises]

Vinnie-I think you're missing my point through all of this. By "debate" I simply mean that is what it appears to have turned into. You seem to be trying very hard to convince me and everyone else that brumation (hibernation) is absolutely necessary. The fact is that it is not necessary in a captivity, generations of tortoises have already proven that. But I also have never said that it should never be done in captivity. That option, as I have pointed out before, is completely up to the keeper that owns the tortoise. They should not be led to believe that they must brumate their tortoises for those tortoises to survive because that simply is not true. Each person has a different level of confidence and experience in all aspects of tortoise care. The point that I have always made about captive brumation, long before the thread that we hijacked, is that there is a risk involved, period. If someone is willing to take that risk that is entirely up to them. If they are not willing to take that risk then their tortoise will live just as well without hibernating if kept in an active environment. In general I advise against it because the majority of people that frequent this forum are new to tortoise keeping and for the most part are here seeking the basic fundamentals of everyday care.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Vinnie-I think you're missing my point through all of this. By "debate" I simply mean that is what it appears to have turned into. You seem to be trying very hard to convince me and everyone else that brumation (hibernation) is absolutely necessary. The fact is that it is not necessary in a captivity, generations of tortoises have already proven that. But I also have never said that it should never be done in captivity. That option, as I have pointed out before, is completely up to the keeper that owns the tortoise. They should not be led to believe that they must brumate their tortoises for those tortoises to survive because that simply is not true. Each person has a different level of confidence and experience in all aspects of tortoise care. The point that I have always made about captive brumation, long before the thread that we hijacked, is that there is a risk involved, period. If someone is willing to take that risk that is entirely up to them. If they are not willing to take that risk then their tortoise will live just as well without hibernating if kept in an active environment. In general I advise against it because the majority of people that frequent this forum are new to tortoise keeping and for the most part are here seeking the basic fundamentals of everyday care.

Nicely put, GB.

 

[CactusVinnie]

By "debate" I simply mean that is what it appears to have turned into. You seem to be trying very hard to convince me and everyone else that brumation (hibernation) is absolutely necessary.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...nation-from-the-Hermann-s-forum#ixzz1dqEClgt3
.....................................................................................
Nicely put, GB.

Sorry, GB and Terry, but you are both wrong. I just was naive enough to believe that I can have a beneficial discussion=debate, that wasn't my way of "trying hard to convince" anyone of anything. Of course- and I even said it- that I don't expect people to do my way, if their tortoises are just fine doing their old way!

It was mostly for the debate's sake, because I think by exchanging knowledge and opinions in a friendly manner is usually a good and productive thing. It works for me, it stimulates me to think and the other people's opinions are improving my level of knowledge.

I asked you some details, because I was REALLY interested and trusted your experience, even if you see different a certain subject. No feed-back.
I showed you an interesting source- no feed back, again.

Those things made me realise that when discussing with an older, experienced breeder, in many cases all is blocked by the advanced ones due to their pride. Wich I never touched, or contested their abilities and knowledge!

Now, what I can do? Not replying to Tortoise- Louise would be rude. Replying , I may even irritate you, by insisting with my point- although no intention to flame or insult/ignore other people. I want to know you point on this, please, and from Louise if I can reply her by PM.

I regret about that turn, and I am still hoping that you can share from your knowledge. If it's about "breeder's secret" (maybe not, but I have met some cases)- then it is no more a problem: I observed them in habitat, informed myself, and already know the basics and breed them with success. But it is still the interest for a little brainstorming, with longtime experience breeders, because that has no substitute, no matter how good you are and how fine it works. It is something new to find at any step, even if it just "works" for you. Many people are smart, but only the older ones can be called "teachers". That's my case, and I am interested in learning, and is not incompatible with the fact I have my particular views. And that should not make anyone feel offended or bored.
That's the reason I subscribed here, and many other places as well.

All the best!

 

[bikerchicspain]

I agree with GB and terry on this one, Not everyone on this forum is experienced enough to be able to calculate if their tort is healthy enough to hibernate,

People have a choice! Hibernation or overwintering it's as simple as that.

Many people like to overwinter their torts so that they can enjoy them all year long, others like to let them do their own thing and hibernate, the risks involved in hibernating are high, rats, mice, parasites,underweight, freezing/frostbite, disease,

I am luck I live in the natural habitat for the Testudo Greaca, I usually over winter, although this year I left some to hibernate and others are overwintering for various reasons,

2 of my Hermanns came out of hibernation after just under a month because our weather is all over the place at the moment, they are now inside overwintering with the others.

I think it is solely up to the owners to decide on brumaton or overwintering, but I do advise my customers not to hibernate their torts

---

By "debate" I simply mean that is what it appears to have turned into. You seem to be trying very hard to convince me and everyone else that brumation (hibernation) is absolutely necessary.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...nation-from-the-Hermann-s-forum#ixzz1dqEClgt3
.....................................................................................
Nicely put, GB.

Sorry, GB and Terry, but you are both wrong. I just was naive enough to believe that I can have a beneficial discussion=debate, that wasn't my way of "trying hard to convince" anyone of anything. Of course- and I even said it- that I don't expect people to do my way, if their tortoises are just fine doing their old way!

It was mostly for the debate's sake, because I think by exchanging knowledge and opinions in a friendly manner is usually a good and productive thing. It works for me, it stimulates me to think and the other people's opinions are improving my level of knowledge.

I asked you some details, because I was REALLY interested and trusted your experience, even if you see different a certain subject. No feed-back.
I showed you an interesting source- no feed back, again.

Those things made me realise that when discussing with an older, experienced breeder, in many cases all is blocked by the advanced ones due to their pride. Wich I never touched, or contested their abilities and knowledge!

Now, what I can do? Not replying to Tortoise- Louise would be rude. Replying , I may even irritate you, by insisting with my point- although no intention to flame or insult/ignore other people. I want to know you point on this, please, and from Louise if I can reply her by PM.

I regret about that turn, and I am still hoping that you can share from your knowledge. If it's about "breeder's secret" (maybe not, but I have met some cases)- then it is no more a problem: I observed them in habitat, informed myself, and already know the basics and breed them with success. But it is still the interest for a little brainstorming, with longtime experience breeders, because that has no substitute, no matter how good you are and how fine it works. It is something new to find at any step, even if it just "works" for you. Many people are smart, but only the older ones can be called "teachers". That's my case, and I am interested in learning, and is not incompatible with the fact I have my particular views. And that should not make anyone feel offended or bored.
That's the reason I subscribed here, and many other places as well.

All the best!

Hi,
Your signature confuses me, especially the Testudo ibera as it is not native to Romania but to republic of Georgia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq and Jordan.

And the Eurotestudo?

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi Yvonne!

Testudo ibera, the ex-Testudo graeca ibera, IS native to Romania!!!
It is also found in a litoral strip of the Eastern Black Sea shore, on Russian and Ukrainian territory, up to the NE side of the Azov sea! Ibera it's a complex with quite a level of variation, and reaching even Afghanistan - ssp. zarudnyi, or any taxonomic status they will be given to. In between... lots of possible ssp., varieties etc., some of them very distinct, possible even separate species (ex. armeniaca).

Eurotestudo is a proposed name for Testudo hermanni complex (wich I would prefer, being kinda splitter), including T.h.h. from Spain, France, Italy, T.h.herzegovinensis from Adriatic/Dalmatian shore, and T.h.boettgeri- Balkans, entering a bit European Turkey.
The E. boettgeri is also native to Romania.

EDIT: if googling "testudo ibera distribution", the... first result is:
http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/Testudo_graeca_ibera439.pdf
Spanish names there! About the distribution map of ibera shown there, it missed that extension, but ibera is found as west as Mariupol (search by Gmaps where it is). It is absent from the N shore of the Black Sea, from Danube Delta eastwards to Mariupol.
The E. boettgeri Romanian distribution is largely correct, for a general map.

Call them as you know, taxonomy is changing, important is to geographically locate the taxon and identifying it correctly.

Well... it seems to me that you opened another possible discussion, through the details you offered. Should I try to discuss them without worrying about being... kinda rejected, as it happened? Because I find lots of things to talk about, but from the recent experiences here, I am hesitating. It could head to another series of misunderstandings...
Well, I better live it as it is. I'm done with "discussing", it seems that it all went in an unwanted direction, so I say "pas".
I just follow nature's ways. Anyone is free to do the opposite. Case closed.

 

[bikerchicspain]

Fabian sorry if you took my comments as hostile, I assure you they were not meant to be, we/I am always interested in hearing other peles opinions,

If we all thought the same thing and had the same opinions then there would be no need for forums or books,

What makes TFO great is that each and everyone of us is unique and do what works best for us and our torts, taking into account each others climate,

I live in Spain so it is not easy for me to advise someone that lives in the states where it can get -20c on if they should hibernate or not,

I think there is still alot of debate on this topic as it is very complexed theme. But we are all very friendly when you get to know us.

GB is very knowledgable in Greeks and he is never an offensive poster. If you just please give us a chance.

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi,
Your post appeared while I was editing mine.
I didn't said that GB is an offensive poster! But, since we were on Debatable Topics- especially splitted from the previous one- I just wondered why not to go further with constructive discussions, even from opposite positions?

Well, -20 it's still OK. What about close to -35*C, in ibera habitat in Romania, or -40*C, in the area where Turkey, Armenia, Iran meet? Superbe habitat for various ibera types, plus armeniaca and perses!

Overwintering these would be OK too ?

 

[bikerchicspain]

I think we should have a debate on hibernating versus overwintering and see other members opinions?

 

[Tortoise]

CactusVinnie
I am happy to get replies through the forum or private mail if you prefer. I have nothing to hide. I am always interested in others opinions and because I ask you to share your hibernation info doesn't necessarily mean I will be hibernating my tortoises. I just want to learn more about all of the methods of care and then I may be able to decide how to proceed based on some different ideas.

I don't think you need to worry about relpying on this forum, there are many of us interested in different opinions and we all do things differently and that is ok too.I don't think most people here are not judgemental as we all have a lot to learn about these creatures regardless of our current knowledge.Feel free to answer publicly!

I tend to PM people if I feel I still have questions following my threads on the forum and I think someone in particular may offer a good opinion etc.

I will take a look at the links you posted-I am sorry I have not had the time to look into those yet.

thank you

---

CactusVinnie
I am happy to get replies through the forum or private mail if you prefer. I have nothing to hide. I am always interested in others opinions and because I ask you to share your hibernation info doesn't necessarily mean I will be hibernating my tortoises. I just want to learn more about all of the methods of care and then I may be able to decide how to proceed based on some different ideas.

I don't think you need to worry about replying on this forum, there are many of us interested in different opinions and we all do things differently and that is ok too.I don't think most people here are not judgmental as we all have a lot to learn about these creatures regardless of our current knowledge.Feel free to answer publicly!

I tend to PM people if I feel I still have questions following my threads on the forum and I think someone in particular may offer a good opinion etc.

I will take a look at the links you posted-I am sorry I have not had the time to look into those yet.

thank you

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Actually, CactusVinnie, I did take the time and look at those links you posted, but saw nothing that changed anything or hadn't already been discussed.

Again, w/ all due respect, Yvonne (bikerchicspain) is absolutely correct in that not everyone on this forum is experienced enough to be able to calculate if their tort is healthy enough to hibernate,...thus, it's kinda irresponsible to insist, to most tortoise-keepers, that brumation is absolutely neccesary, considering that if anything goes less than optimally, a beloved pet can be harmed or lost. Your well-intended advise may well kill many a newbie's pet, and I'm certain that was never your intention.

If you feel like you know enough to avoid each and every risk involved in "natural brumation", then it's an option for you, but please don't try to convince anyone that it's "manditory", because experience has taught many of us that brumation is entirely optional.

There has never been any evidence whatsoever that "over-wintering" a tortoise shortens it's life, lowers it's reproductive urges, or in any other way causes any physiological harm to it..

---

I think we should have a debate on hibernating versus overwintering and see other members opinions?

Excellent idea!

 

[CactusVinnie]

Hi all!

Tortoise,

the way you described your Britain experience in brumation, it seems like you maybe followed TT-Andy Highfield system (?). I was starting with it too, because I find it quite natural, simple and logic. Now, I have my own variant, adapted to my situation and point of view: let them go underground, with a natural wind-down, as they feel proper, then safe brumation, due to fear of predation.
So, your Manitoba location will bring just a longer winter, but your knowledge is already enough to prepare a tortoise for brumation and awakening it. In my opinion, a good outdoor shelter with a diggable soil underneath will be enough, and after freezing beginns, in a above-freezing day, just take the tortoise (wich naturally entered brumation, following the season) inside to fridge hibernation, as you used to do before. After last freeze in Spring- awakening, again- as you did before.
You maybe want to awake the tortoise earlier (March- April, as in habitat), so a tortoise table or anything suitable should be prepared until last frost is gone.

In my opinion, your location will be quite suited to horsfields, not hermanni (BTW, hermanni or boettgeri?). They are found in Manitoba-like climates too (if you are living in the south, I hope). You then should provide them a very diggable ground, for them to go under the frostline, and a good shelter, to raise that frostline to an acceptable level.

In its northern range, in very dry locations (Khovd, Mongolia), snowcover is often missing, not a reliable protection against -45*C , so they digg very deep in a very light, sandy soil, down to 1m or deeper, to escape the freezing hell from above.
That's for outdoor keeping- for fridge hibernation, you just pick them up right after they spontaneously go underground in Autumn, and then you can play it safe with controlled brumation.

Terry,
Yes, that was the point: I was not intending to actually convince people to brumate, no matter their experience- and, as specified, maybe there are beginners that could skip a factor and kill the tortoise- but debating*.
So, it was not an indication for any keeper, but for any keeper that learned the preparing steps and then be able to decide, if he will share my opinion or yours about brumation itself. It was not about brumation mistakes that can kill, but about correct brumation!
If we will debate this idea, first we should have a live animal, even overwintered, then we can start debating about! Of course I agree you on that!
So, in my personal view, I don't think brumation is optional (on that we may not agree), but, as you said, until the keeper is confident and well informed, he should overwinter.
I do the same, by precaution, with new received tortoises, even apparently in good shape. I cannot know for sure if they had enough sun, if they were fed tomatoes and fruits etc., so until I have them an entire season under my care and observation, brumation is excluded.

There has never been any evidence whatsoever that "over-wintering" a tortoise shortens it's life, lowers it's reproductive urges, or in any other way causes any physiological harm to it..

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=36361#ixzz1du1g3Yao

Well, as GB said, that works both directions. Maybe, maybe not, still not studied. That's why our debate (*) included my request to you, to describe your breeding experience, as overwintering adepts. Well, at least you, since GB has both brumating and non-brumating animals, but I hope he can offer details for each group.
With brumation, it's just natural, no wonder the beasts are horny in Spring, and fertility is usually 100%. The surprise would came from non-brumating animals, that's why I am so curious about your knowledge.

Actually, CactusVinnie, I did take the time and look at those links you posted, but saw nothing that changed anything or hadn't already been discussed.

Read more: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/newreply.php?tid=36361#ixzz1duD4fZ4a

Terry, not even the fact that they actually survive slightly below freezing- and for extended periods- surprised you? I found it mindblowing! Well, I will not let that happen to my captives, unless unintentioned, a possible escaped young/hatchling in the future or something like that. You can say that this is "indirect evidence", not enough for convincing you. And maybe it should be that way, to continue the debate and make you share your secrets !

Respectfully yours,
Fabian