So supporting Sea World with a hell of a lot of money each year is better?Supporting Animal Rightists in any way, shape or form is NOT good for animals or people who keep them.
So supporting Sea World with a hell of a lot of money each year is better?
Not that I'm a fan of PETA and the like, but Sea World with all its advertising etc. is basically propaganda as well for its own cause. So two agendas, but ignoring both sides' propaganda, can you really say these animals are better off in captivity?
There is a difference between the proportional size that your Russians in their 'at least an 8X4 ft enclosure' get, and some huge whales, not to mention the difference in intelligence. Their is a huge difference between small reptiles, and large mammals or cetaceans.
Huge generalisation again about conservationists and people who stick up for animal rights. Sure, there are bad groups, we have a very manipulative group against reptiles in the UK called the APA, -and those are generally the ones who get the attention- but there are also plenty of good groups. For instance, I believe you are very good friends with Tomas at the African Chelonia Institute? Is that not a conservation organisation?Anything and everything is better than supporting animal killing, lying, rights destroying terrorists.
Understand that these groups do not want you or anyone else to have pets, they kill more dogs in THEIR shelter than local county shelters, and are defined by the FBI as a terrorist group. They manipulate children and hand out pamphlets with horror movie style depictions to children in an attempt to turn children against their parents for eating fish and chicken.
I am all for animal welfare, housing animals well and offering good captive conditions. I am against assigning the same rights to animals as are extended to human beings. I am against terrorists and liars. I'm against people who attempt to turn innocent children against their parents to further their political agenda. I am against people who want to tell me I can't have a pet tortoise.
Huge generalisation again about conservationists and people who stick up for animal rights. Sure, there are bad groups, we have a very manipulative group against reptiles in the UK called the APA, -and those are generally the ones who get the attention- but there are also plenty of good groups. For instance, I believe you are very good friends with Tomas at the African Chelonia Institute? Is that not a conservation organisation?
Who exactly are you talking about with this 'animal killing'? Most shelters do good work, I know some dog shelters in the States have a bad reputation for putting healthy animals down, but even in the US, that is a small amount. I'm guessing the terrorist group is PETA, correct? Yes, they are not good e.g. ruined the Nazca Lines recently, but I wouldn't take the FBI's terrorist list too literally, there are(and have been) some interesting names on there...
I am vegetarian; is that the product of propaganda? Yes, it probably is, but there is a whole lot more 'eat meat( or fish)' 'propaganda' out there than 'don't eat meat'. If every animal was farmed with a good quality of life, fine, but that doesn't happen here in the EU with a pretty comprehensive legislation list(which puts up food prices), yet alone countries with much worse welfare acts for farm animals.
We are, as a world, still a hell of a long way off granting human rights to animals-don't worry there, it won't happen anytime soon...
But what you appear to be saying is that anyone who utters the words 'animal rights' is a terrorist or liar if they want them to have a standard of living similar to humans? That seems a bit strong to me. There is more evidence that worldwide animal conditions-farming, entertainment etc.- are detrimental for the animals, which leads to the question, who is lying? Sure, PETA are, but what about people who want animals to have space, to have food which doesn't involve them being a cannibal?
Sea World do a lot more to manipulate parents through advertising to children than the animal rights group, in a similar way that McDonalds do actually, to go back to farming. Propaganda is employed much more by the pro-captive supporters than the antis, as they are often referred to...
Finally, nobody here is against pet tortoises in the right conditions, but that is a different case, and while I do believe most enclosures-off forum, of course- are too small, they have a lot more proportional space, while being much less intelligent animals. There is a difference between tortoises and cetaceans, and I feel like you have missed that point in this discussion, and ones we have had on a similar subject before.
The animal rights-conservationist group is a very fine line, but I can simply not accept that ALL animal right groups are bad.ALL animal rights groups are bad. They purposefully confuse the issue of animal rights and animal welfare. They dupe nice people with good intentions toward animals into giving them money to use for political and nefarious purposes.
The animal rights run shelters have a dismal record for killing animals and refusing adoptions.
I don't know why you wouldn't take the FBIs list seriously. I do.
About Sea World. I know of no other organization in the entire world that has done more to educate people and engender a love of the ocean, and all its creatures. They've done this for generations. They did it with ME! We want to throw this organization under the bus because some people think the pools are too small for the killer whales. Or @terryo , our definition of which animals are allowed in captivity depends on which ones can kill people? That's not how I choose to decide this issue.
How about instead of condemning an entire group that employs thousands of people who love animals and are dedicated to conservation and eduction, we instead try to get them to make the pools bigger and better?
And Tomas? I have no problem conservation. I participate in it myself. Conservation and animal rights are two different things, just as protecting wild animals in the wild and banning peoples CB pets are tow different things.
Did I miss any points?
How many of you have seen Sea World's PATHETIC commercials regarding orcas! Absolutely disgusting! ALL LIES!
The animal rights-conservationist group is a very fine line, but I can simply not accept that ALL animal right groups are bad.
The RSPCA for instance in the UK was set up for the welfare of animals here, and yes they know nothing about tortoises, but it would be very rare to have a healthy animal put down. While I'm sure there are exceptions, I highly doubt that the overall shelter record in The States is 'dismal'.What about private rescue organisations? We have a few for tortoises on this forum...
Not saying I don't take it seriously, but the FBI has had some interesting names on that list.
Maybe so, and they are using money from the entertainment for this, but little research NOW is being done into them by Sea World, the money would be better spent with a number of smaller, specialised organisations that at the end of the day don't have a very large tax bill to pay for their revenue. You yourself specifically discourage people keeping tortoises in small enclosures, is an orca any different?
They might be starting a love for orcas with some little kids-note to self, nice propaganda btw-, but that is for an orca in captivity, which is not where they should be, not at least until as you said the pools are 'better', and much 'better'. And realistically, an adequate enclosure would require a phenomenal amount of space and money.
Again, you're getting hung up on the tortoise point. Tortoises and orcas are not the same, not at all really...
They might be starting a love for orcas with some little kids-note to self, nice propaganda btw-, but that is for an orca in captivity, which is not where they should be...
That's the thing Terry, I have to question the intelligence of anyone who thinks that putting an orca into captivity is not for pure entertainment. The money they bring in is also a reason. A very selfish reason might I add. That's why Sea World doesn't want to give them up. Sea World is losing big time now and that's exactly what should happen. Tilikum is not doing well. He sits in his small tank day after day not moving a lot of the time. In the wild this is not how they behave. I am doing my part in educating everyone that I come in contact with about the orcas and dolpins that are held in captivity. It is wrong to do this to these animals. I ask people to please watch Blackfish as it is based only on factual evidence. I tell people, if after watching this educational documentary you want to go back to Sea World, then I can't stop you. I haven't had one person come back after watching it that said they would visit Sea World again. They tell me the opposite and they start advocating themselves and that is exactly what I want to see. These animals cannot speak for themselves so it's up to us to lend them our voices and our time. If you have not watched Blackfish please do and get the facts about this cruel industry.I'll never get it Candy. This world is never going to change. People will always suck. Intelligent people condoning this is way beyond my comprehension.