Pyramiding time frame question

Is there an age frame where pyramiding is at the highest risk. I have a redfoot ~1 yr old and have not noticed any signs on her. There is nothing raised compared to many of the photos that I have seen posted. Does most damage occur while they are hatchlings or does the risk stop at some age/size?

What do you mean by damage when hatching?

Pyramiding is a form of metabolic bone disease (MBD) that could develop at any time of a tortoises life but I think more so the first 4 years of life.

When a tortoises is in captivity like the redfoot and starts pyramiding it's a sign of poor care, poor health that's caused by it's keeper. The redfoot tortoise for example if kept in captivity is 100% dependent on it's keepers husbandry. This means if you want to keep your tortoise looking amazing and in good health then you can never stop giving her the best possible care for the rest of her life or as long as you keep her,.RIGHT?

SaveTheTortoise said:

What do you mean by damage when hatching?

Pyramiding is a form of metabolic bone disease (MBD) that could develop at any time of a tortoises life but I think more so the first 4 years of life.

When a tortoises is in captivity like the redfoot and starts pyramiding it's a sign of poor care, poor health that's caused by it's keeper. The redfoot tortoise for example if kept in captivity is 100% dependent on it's keepers husbandry. This means if you want to keep your tortoise looking amazing and in good health then you can never stop giving her the best possible care for the rest of her life or as long as you keep her,.RIGHT?

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I meant pyramiding damage during the time they were very young hatchlings not as they were actually hatching out of the egg. The first 4 years of life makes sense. I know that they need less humidity as older adults than when they are very young, so it would make sense for babies to have the biggest danger for it if there is a connection to humidity.
I interact with the redfoots at our local zoo and they are always very dry, but they are ~20 years old I believe. My little Rosey has always had humidity inside, but I wondered about all her time outside last summer with just misting to bring up the humidity out there.

Plain, old pyramiding is not MBD, but you can see some pyramiding along with MBD. Regular pyramiding occurs during the first year of a tortoise's life. The pyramiding associated with MBD can happen throughout the tortoise's life. During the first year, you keep the baby in a moist/humid environment and you will grow a smooth tortoise. After the first year you can start weaning to a drier habitat and even include days outside, but its still a good idea to keep a warm, humid hiding place for another year or so.

SaveTheTortoise said:

What do you mean by damage when hatching?

Pyramiding is a form of metabolic bone disease (MBD) that could develop at any time of a tortoises life but I think more so the first 4 years of life.

When a tortoises is in captivity like the redfoot and starts pyramiding it's a sign of poor care, poor health that's caused by it's keeper. The redfoot tortoise for example if kept in captivity is 100% dependent on it's keepers husbandry. This means if you want to keep your tortoise looking amazing and in good health then you can never stop giving her the best possible care for the rest of her life or as long as you keep her,.RIGHT?

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I don't like that phrase. While I agree that the environment and care must be spot on, even then that does not mean a smooth tortoise guaranteed. The tortoise does have some freedom, even in captivity. Within an enclosure, many micro-climates may be found, which could be picked nearly all the time-then your high humidity, warm environment is going to waste! It may also choose different types of foods over others-particularly if you have a group, it becomes harder to keep track of which tortoise is eating what.

I'm finding that there is no time in their life when you can let them be bone dry. My friend Terry K here on the forum has a red foot that was several years old and it started pyramiding. I believe he said it was 6 or 8 years old. I've raised a whole bunch of sulcatas and leopards super smooth while in their indoor enclosures with relatively short daily sunning sessions and all of them started pyramiding as soon as I moved them outside full-time. I've been able to stop the trend by adding humidity to their night boxes. Some of these are 3-4 years old now.

Remember and apply this concept and things will make sense: Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in conditions that are too dry. Anytime a tortoise is growing in conditions that are too dry, the pyramiding process can occur. Since there is a lot of growth in the first few years, this would be the most critical time period to look at, but you can still encounter problems later on, they just won't be as noticeable or sever looking.

FLINTUS said:

I don't like that phrase. While I agree that the environment and care must be spot on, even then that does not mean a smooth tortoise guaranteed. The tortoise does have some freedom, even in captivity. Within an enclosure, many micro-climates may be found, which could be picked nearly all the time-then your high humidity, warm environment is going to waste! It may also choose different types of foods over others-particularly if you have a group, it becomes harder to keep track of which tortoise is eating what.

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All good points Flintus, and I agree. I have seen the same while raising groups of sibling tortoises together in the same enclosure. Everything can be identical, but one will be a little smoother than another. As you noted, it is hard to keep track of every detail with several tortoises in the same enclosure, but over time the difference in appearance becomes obvious. I do not know what it is that makes the difference yet.

I find that Vita-Shell helps thru the transition to a dryer environment. I might miss a week during the winter when thier inside but during the Summer when their outside. I don't miss an application!

Tom said:

All good points Flintus, and I agree. I have seen the same while raising groups of sibling tortoises together in the same enclosure. Everything can be identical, but one will be a little smoother than another. As you noted, it is hard to keep track of every detail with several tortoises in the same enclosure, but over time the difference in appearance becomes obvious. I do not know what it is that makes the difference yet.

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Yes. My hingebacks are all smooth with their new growth-which I'm pleased with with them in my care for close to a year now, I've managed to get the growth more 'wild' than before as well. The red foot I've raised since he was very young is perfectly smooth, almost wild smooth. I also have 3 tortoises that I have acquired second hand, all with pyramiding. One, which had a calcium deficiency when young, has come on well with smooth growth in my care. The other 2 I acquired separately had very nasty pyramiding, and while the growth is a bit smoother, the new growth is still not making the shapes less obvious. One has a normal dome and then pyramiding, and she's slowly getting better. The other one, who is quite 'flat', while her growth is relatively smooth, her shell isn't getting back to normal shape. While this may be due to the 'theory'-and it is a theory at the moment, no one has tested it- that tortoises have a pattern for them for growth when they are young, I suspect the choices of the tortoise also plays a part.

Yeah so like I said, if you want to keep your tortoise looking amazing and smooth then you can never stop providing it a humid environment for the rest of it's life especially if you have a species that needs more humidity and if you live in a dryer or cold climate right.

TortoiseWorld said:

Yeah so like I said, if you want to keep your tortoise looking amazing and smooth then you can never stop providing it a humid environment for the rest of it's life especially if you have a species that needs more humidity and if you live in a dryer or cold climate right.

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This is different. These 3 tortoises were not raised in the correct environment.
While some species do live in constant humidity, with the Leopard and Sulcata humidity method it is due to microclimates in the wild. When they get older, they come out into the savannah more, which is drier. Even as babies, they would not live in a year round humid environment, only for a bit of the year, which is then they eat the most as the vegetation is lusher.

FLINTUS said:

While this may be due to the 'theory'-and it is a theory at the moment, no one has tested it- that tortoises have a pattern for them for growth when they are young, I suspect the choices of the tortoise also plays a part.

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If this were correct I don't think it would be so easy to change growth patterns by simply manipulating environmental factors. My Daisy is a perfect example. She was started in the typical dry fashion and horribly pyramided when I got her, and she's now been growing smooth for years. It took time to change the established pattern, but if her "pattern" was somehow set when she was young, I would not have been able to change it with the addition of soaks and humidity. I suspect your last sentence quoted above to be more true than the first, but it now begs the question: Why? Why do they make the choices they make? I see many keepers promoting the idea that we should offer several microclimates in our enclosures and let the tortoises choose what they want. Whenever this is done, some tortoise will make poor choices, for whatever reason, and their carapace growth or health will suffer for it.

Not my theory Tom, it's been thrown about a bit recently on this forum and others though. I don't personally buy it-as I have Kevin who is now growing very smoothly.
Until we know more about tortoise intelligence, I think that is an impossible question to answer. Do tortoises have 'habits?' Maybe that is what is more comfortable for them? We all have preferred weather. We all do things as well which aren't good for us. But I honestly think that you can have too much of something good, for instance, you wouldn't want the plastron wet all the time. Yes, you are taking a risk, but I still would be worried if someone, somehow, artificially created an environment where the humidity was always at 85%, and the ambient at 28-these are just random numbers here- throughout the entire enclosure.

I hear what you are saying Flintus. We are in agreement I think that more certainly needs to be learned.

I don't know what worries you about 85% and 32 degrees C, but I can assure you it works fantastically for tropical species. I have literally raised hundreds of them this way. When done in a closed chamber it also allows me to keep the substrate dry while still offering enough humidity for smooth growth. In my closed chambers humidity fluctuates between 78-90% and ambient temps drop to around 26C over night and rise back up to 33-34C the next day. I wouldn't keep Testudo or other temperate species this way, but it works great for leopards, sulcatas, red foots, stars, pancakes, radiata, and every other tropical species I have seen it used with.

There are tortoises in the wild with pyramiding, so why do you care if you have a tortoise that pyramids a little like some do in the wild? The reason many of us care is because we all like the look of a smooth shinny carapaces and the pyramiding is a sign of disfigurement or abnormalities. We are proud of our tortoises and want them to look kick ***, that's why we care.
I have not yet mastered the closed enclosure set-up as well as some of you, I can't seem to get the humidity high enough and still have dry substrate. My enclosure is a work in progress and I'm about to transfer my 0.2 baby platynota to a 100 gallon aquarium. Once a month I rub a little pure coconut oil on the top of their carapace to prevent them looking dry and flaky.

Tom said:

I hear what you are saying Flintus. We are in agreement I think that more certainly needs to be learned.

I don't know what worries you about 85% and 32 degrees C, but I can assure you it works fantastically for tropical species. I have literally raised hundreds of them this way. When done in a closed chamber it also allows me to keep the substrate dry while still offering enough humidity for smooth growth. In my closed chambers humidity fluctuates between 78-90% and ambient temps drop to around 26C over night and rise back up to 33-34C the next day. I wouldn't keep Testudo or other temperate species this way, but it works great for leopards, sulcatas, red foots, stars, pancakes, radiata, and every other tropical species I have seen it used with.

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I brought them up as random numbers as I said, but I just think the idea of completely at that level, all the time, will be bad for them with future health problems. In terms of tropical species, I would say Red Foots are probably more 'tropical' than Leopards or Sulcatas. It was not targeted towards your method as you cannot keep a fully consistent environment in a closed chamber or what we call, a vivarium, as you say slightly further on.

This has been a very interesting (and peaceful) back and forth conversation, but it is getting off the subject of what is the time frame for pyramiding.

Sorry-I kind of started the off-topic conversation. Could it be moved to a new thread please?

FLINTUS said:

I brought them up as random numbers as I said, but I just think the idea of completely at that level, all the time, will be bad for them with future health problems. In terms of tropical species, I would say Red Foots are probably more 'tropical' than Leopards or Sulcatas. It was not targeted towards your method as you cannot keep a fully consistent environment in a closed chamber or what we call, a vivarium, as you say slightly further on.

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Not tracking with you now... Your three sentences bring up three different points that I don't agree with. One at a time:
1. At what point in the future should I and everyone else expect to see these "health problems" in our tortoises raised this way? They have been doing well for six years so far, and show no sign whatsoever of any problems. Do you have long term experience with some sort of problem that comes from raising them this way that I don't know about? What "health problems", specifically, do you think I am likely to encounter at some point in the future from this way of raising tortoises?

2. If two or three tortoise species naturally occur between the tropic of cancer and the tropic of capricorn, how is one species "more tropical" than the other?

3. Why can I not keep a fully consistent environment in a vivarium further on? Many people in cold climates maintain very large closed chambers, entire basements or rooms in this way over winter. Further, what deviations from my preferred parameters do you suggest in order to prevent these problems that you are foretelling of?


Yvonne, This all relates directly to the OPs original question in every way. We are discussing the timeframes and ages involved with pyramiding in each post. I suspect you are afraid this is going to derail into off topic arguments, but all parties here are mature and capable of civility. We are simply discussing the OPs topic and question along with other aspects directly related to it.

Tom said:

Not tracking with you now... Your three sentences bring up three different points that I don't agree with. One at a time:
1. At what point in the future should I and everyone else expect to see these "health problems" in our tortoises raised this way? They have been doing well for six years so far, and show no sign whatsoever of any problems. Do you have long term experience with some sort of problem that comes from raising them this way that I don't know about? What "health problems", specifically, do you think I am likely to encounter at some point in the future from this way of raising tortoises?

2. If two or three tortoise species naturally occur between the tropic of cancer and the tropic of capricorn, how is one species "more tropical" than the other?

3. Why can I not keep a fully consistent environment in a vivarium further on? Many people in cold climates maintain very large closed chambers, entire basements or rooms in this way over winter. Further, what deviations from my preferred parameters do you suggest in order to prevent these problems that you are foretelling of?


Yvonne, This all relates directly to the OPs original question in every way. We are discussing the timeframes and ages involved with pyramiding in each post. I suspect you are afraid this is going to derail into off topic arguments, but all parties here are mature and capable of civility. We are simply discussing the OPs topic and question along with other aspects directly related to it.

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Ok.
1. Much thicker keratin is one of the more obvious problems, but it is not natural to keep humidity constantly high everywhere. Luckily, as I said, even in a closed chamber of any size you WILL have microclimates and changes throughout the day. I guarantee it. You even said it earlier on.
2. Fine, from a purely geographical point of view they are both in the tropics. But certainly in the case of Sulcatas, their range is further away from the Equator. I was basing my more 'tropical' on the fact that 'tropical' is generally associated with year round high humidity, which is not in the grasslands that Sulcatas and Leopards occupy-I will be going out to western Kenya not this summer, but the following so I will try and get some data then.
3. You misunderstood me here. By 'further on', I meant in your post- this line:
In my closed chambers humidity fluctuates between 78-90% and ambient temps drop to around 26C over night and rise back up to 33-34C the next day

Tom, let me be perfectly clear. I am not criticizing your ideas here at all. I myself use a vivarium for my red foots-although my hinges currently have a part open enclosure, and I maintain humidity always above 80% so it can be done. What I'm saying is that an artificial environment where everything is constantly at what we think is best would probably not work if someone managed somehow to achieve it-I brought this up due to your point about should we provide options for our tortoises when we were talking about choices.
Hopefully you can now understand what I mean.
Also, I am curious by two of your claims for species. Constant high humidity has been known to cause respiration problems for Stars. They appear to have done better at 60%. That said, the growth is still poor, the best results appear to be with a more local diet. Pancakes as well.
Also, radiata are a species that I saw a lot of in Mauritius. I have written my observations down before, but in summary they are being grown smooth on sand, with roughly 50-60% humidity, and a few MICROCLIMATES created by plants. Interestingly enough, they were also being fed sugar cane a lot.