Vet visits not working RI

[Speedy101]

Hi,
Speedy has had an upper respiratory infection for 3 weeks now. Symptoms: runny nose and sticky eyes. Still active and eating. He first went to the vets ( deals with tortoises and has some of his own) a week after his symptoms began so about two weeks ago. Listened to lungs and they sounded clear but airway had mucus so he was given a shot of antibiotics. I went back the week after as he still had a runny nose and his eyes were sticky now. Second time another shot of antibiotics, an anti inflammatory and eye drops for his eyes. It’s now nearly been two weeks and he’s still got these symptoms. He’s still eating and active. Nothing has changed in his environment for which he might have had a reaction to either. No new substrate. No temperature drop. No contact with other tortoises. Any advice on what to do? It’s getting expensive with the vet visits with not much results.

 

[wellington]

@Yvonne G

 

[Yvonne G]

Unless your vet took a smear to look at under the microscope, your animal may not have a R.I. If they're only going by symptoms (runny nose, not eating, etc.) STRESS also causes these symptoms. Try to figure out if your tortoise is being stressed and correct that problem, and the symptoms may go away. You can also try heating up his whole enclosure to about 85F day and night and see if that helps.

 

[Speedy101]

Unless your vet took a smear to look at under the microscope, your animal may not have a R.I. If they're only going by symptoms (runny nose, not eating, etc.) STRESS also causes these symptoms. Try to figure out if your tortoise is being stressed and correct that problem, and the symptoms may go away. You can also try heating up his whole enclosure to about 85F day and night and see if that helps.

What are the main causes of stress? I know low temps or temps too high can cause stress but he has not experienced fluctuations of temperature. He is alone in his enclosure although he has been very territorial lately and being ramming his hides a lot. His enclosure his 8ft by 3ft and he also spends hot days in his outdoor enclosure which is secure and has lots of hides. I think you could be right because he is not acting unwell he’s still very active and has a big appetite.

 

[mark1]

imo, the reason stress causes symptoms is because healthy turtles and tortoises harbor all kinds of bacteria all the time , stress suppresses immune function , and those bacteria proliferate to where they become symptomatic ..........

a shot every week or two weeks is not normal to my experiences , my experience has been shots every 2-3 days depending on the antibiotic for like 10 days .......

not all antibiotics are equal , they don't all work on every type of infection .........

Five Basic Mechanisms of Antibiotic Action against Bacterial Cells:​

1. Inhibition of Cell Wall Synthesis (most common mechanism)
2. Inhibition of Protein Synthesis (Translation) (second largest class)
3. Alteration of Cell Membranes
4. Inhibition of Nucleic Acid Synthesis
5. Antimetabolite Activity

if i was guessing your tortoise likely has a mycoplasma infection , they can carry that for their entire lives , and it will only be symptomatic when they are subject to stress .....

there are protocols for treating mycoplasma

imo, smears are not real useful , as i already said healthy turtles and tortoises carry all kinds of bacteria all the time, doesn't mean if it's there it's what is making them sick , and it may not be seeable there and it is making them sick.........

as Yvonne said , removing the stress may allow the tortoises own immune response to take care of it

 

[Speedy101]

imo, the reason stress causes symptoms is because healthy turtles and tortoises harbor all kinds of bacteria all the time , stress suppresses immune function , and those bacteria proliferate to where they become symptomatic ..........

a shot every week or two weeks is not normal to my experiences , my experience has been shots every 2-3 days depending on the antibiotic for like 10 days .......

not all antibiotics are equal , they don't all work on every type of infection .........

Five Basic Mechanisms of Antibiotic Action against Bacterial Cells:​

1. Inhibition of Cell Wall Synthesis (most common mechanism)
2. Inhibition of Protein Synthesis (Translation) (second largest class)
3. Alteration of Cell Membranes
4. Inhibition of Nucleic Acid Synthesis
5. Antimetabolite Activity

if i was guessing your tortoise likely has a mycoplasma infection , they can carry that for their entire lives , and it will only be symptomatic when they are subject to stress .....

there are protocols for treating mycoplasma

imo, smears are not real useful , as i already said healthy turtles and tortoises carry all kinds of bacteria all the time, doesn't mean if it's there it's what is making them sick , and it may not be seeable there and it is making them sick.........

as Yvonne said , removing the stress may allow the tortoises own immune response to take care of it

How would he have caught mycoplasma? He has never had contact with another tortoise. We have one other who has no symptoms but they are in complete separate enclosures and we are careful with cross contamination. I’ve had speedy for 12 years ( he is 16) and he has never been like this before.

 

[mark1]

is he kept outside ? might not be mycoplasma , but the most common known cause of uri in tortoises i'm pretty sure is mycoplasma .........

 

[Tom]

Hi,
Speedy has had an upper respiratory infection for 3 weeks now. Symptoms: runny nose and sticky eyes. Still active and eating. He first went to the vets ( deals with tortoises and has some of his own) a week after his symptoms began so about two weeks ago. Listened to lungs and they sounded clear but airway had mucus so he was given a shot of antibiotics. I went back the week after as he still had a runny nose and his eyes were sticky now. Second time another shot of antibiotics, an anti inflammatory and eye drops for his eyes. It’s now nearly been two weeks and he’s still got these symptoms. He’s still eating and active. Nothing has changed in his environment for which he might have had a reaction to either. No new substrate. No temperature drop. No contact with other tortoises. Any advice on what to do? It’s getting expensive with the vet visits with not much results.

Here is a big problem with most vets: Wild animals don't get sick for no reason. You bring in a tort with a runny nose, and the vet wants to treat the symptoms. But what is the PROBLEM that caused the symptoms? If you don't find and correct the problem that caused the symptoms in the first place, what is the point of treating the symptoms?

Here are some common causes of these symptoms for you to consider:
1. Sandy substrate.
2. Dry dusty substrate of any kind.
3. Wrong UV lights, or incorrectly mounted or used UV lights, when indoors.
4. Some foods cause this sort of thing. Many tortoises get nose bubbles when eating opuntia pads. Might there be some seasonal food that he's finding outside that would make him do this?
5. Cold damp night temps.

 

[Speedy101]

Here is a big problem with most vets: Wild animals don't get sick for no reason. You bring in a tort with a runny nose, and the vet wants to treat the symptoms. But what is the PROBLEM that caused the symptoms? If you don't find and correct the problem that caused the symptoms in the first place, what is the point of treating the symptoms?

Here are some common causes of these symptoms for you to consider:
1. Sandy substrate.
2. Dry dusty substrate of any kind.
3. Wrong UV lights, or incorrectly mounted or used UV lights, when indoors.
4. Some foods cause this sort of thing. Many tortoises get nose bubbles when eating opuntia pads. Might there be some seasonal food that he's finding outside that would make him do this?
5. Cold damp night temps.

He is on coco coir which I know can get dusty but I pour water into it an mix it up often he has always been on this with no issues. We bring him inside the house on a night where temps are always 20c plus. He lives in a heated greenhouse on rainy days here in uk and goes outside on hot sunny days. His UV is mounted about 50 cm from his shell according to the guide on the lights. They are t5 12% which get changed each September. I don’t have a uv reader as I can’t afford one but he gets plenty of sunshine too with uv readings 6 plus outside in summer.

 

[Speedy101]

is he kept outside ? might not be mycoplasma , but the most common known cause of uri in tortoises i'm pretty sure is mycoplasma .........

He is kept in a heated greenhouse goes outside on warm sunny days here in the UK and brought inside our house at night.

 

[mark1]

.
Nasal Discharge in Tortoises Thomas H. Boyer, DVM, DABVP (Reptile & Amphibian Practice) Pet Hospital of Penasquitos, San Diego, CA, USA


Nasal discharge is a common presenting clinical sign in tortoises and some turtles and is always abnormal, even if chronic. Many clients are not aware of this and fail to seek treatment, or consider discharge not a problem because of its long standing nature. Clients have even speculated the coastal marine layer in southern California causes nasal discharge; not true! There are many potential causes. Mycoplasmosis remains the most common cause of nasal discharge but the differential diagnoses in chelonians also includes colonic obstruction, herpes virus, ranavirus, adenovirus, intranuclear coccidiosis, chlamydiosis, reovirus, paramyxovirus, picorna-like viruses, foreign bodies, oronasal fistulas and even hypovitaminosis A, except in tortoises.

 

[Tom]

.
Clients have even speculated the coastal marine layer in southern California causes nasal discharge; not true!

I don't speculate that the marine layer causes nasal discharge. I observed dozens of times that tortoises housed near the coast had nasal discharge, and since it was year round, I don't think the marine layer had anything to do with it. The marine layer typically rolls in thick through most of May and June. We saw cases from January through December.

Without exception, the problem resolved itself when the tortoise was moved inland to a drier, sunnier, warmer area, and/or given supplemental heat in the drier warmer areas, during colder weather.

I don't think the marine layer caused the nasal discharge. I think the consistent cold clammy weather with no ability to warm up ever hampered the immune system, and every other system, and allowed one of the many possible causes of the nasal discharge listed by Dr. Boyer to gain a foot hold. Once allowed to warm up in the sun, or under a heat lamp at some times of the year, the immune system would kick back in and fight off the offending pathogen(s). I have no doubt that this vet's clients noticed a lot of these cases in May/June, during the spring time "May Gray" and "June Gloom", because their tortoises were recently out of "hibernation" (Which simply means they were left outside in a mild climate with no heat, and they somehow managed to survive...) and the tortoises present lethargy, lack of appetite, and nasal discharge because the outside temperature in their irrigated backyard enclosure hovers between 50 and 70 degrees with almost no sunshine, and unusually high humidity at that time of year.