under the weather red foot?

[Whinhill]

Hi,

i have a red footed tortoise circa 300g, (around 1.5 years old) no weight loss and she vomited earlier today (her last meal; tomato) now drinking well, but refusing to feed, still active if a little lethargic. Slight clicking noise coming from her throat.

She lives (with 4 other similar sized red foots) in an 8 x 6 tortoise table dry basking end 32oC; cool end 19oC humidity 60-70%. Diet Mixed Greens & grasses, 85%, fruits 10%, proteins 5%. Calcium supplement with D3 daily, bathed every 3 days or so.

No parasites in feces (I'm a PhD parasitologist so I'm confident about that)

Any ideas?


Ian

 

[Madkins007]

How long have you had her, and the others? I would separate her out just in case it is a bug and clean everything well.

I don't have anything specific to add or ask (its pretty late here, brain not firing on all cylinders), but you can find some helpful stuff at The Tortoise Library linked below.

 

[Balboa]

Total Newb here, but if no worms, what about possible impaction? Either substrate or maybe too much fiber? From your percentages you're a bit lower on the protein and fruit in the diet than what I've garnered to be the "norm" for redfoots. Grass especially is considered too coarse for redfoots for a staple? sorry if I'm offbase here.

the clicking thing makes me think of her trying to vomit more, or clear an obstruction.

I'm sure more knowledgeable folks will come up with good suggestions.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Your cool end sounds a bit low. If I do the math right that puts it at around 65 F right? That would be too low. Shoot for something a bit warmer, like in the 25-27 C range. Humidity could also be a bit higher. It seems like the "sweet spot" is around 80%.

With no weight loss, you may have caught this before it has really gotten started. Good job. Also, tomato isn't usually a recommended food. Is that something she gets often? Is the clicking coming from her throat when she eats or all the time?

What substrate is she on?

 

[Whinhill]

Hi

thanks for the help,

she's eating (dandelion) and she defecated this morning (I have her poo here at work with me for an OCP and culture later on), and again she drank well when bathed

I've had her 5 months in that time she's put on 73g (going from 266g to 329g) in that time and she had gained weight between the 18th October and yesterday's weighing.

The clicking can best be described as intermittent. It is a distinct click not a rasping or gasping breathing sound. It can happen at anytime, but is more common after feeding or after she wakes up. But it is not continuos nor is there any discharge from her nose. She may click 6 or 7 times then stop and start again a few minutes later.

She's on 2" of Cypress mulch with sphagnum on the surface which is well soaked and she is misted daily. As the tortoise table is very open I'm adding a mister this week to up the humidity and a plexiglass cover at one end to provide a more moist microhabitat.

Interestingly there is a good temperature gradient across the tortoise table from 32oC at the hot end to 25oC in the center to 19-20oC at the cool end. But I'll Stick in another heat lamp in when I get home and get the cool end up to 25oC ish. They often choose to sleep at the drier warm end and they forage in the damp cooler end when they are active.

Thanks again

Ian

 

[Madkins007]

Clicking... I've had some that clicked, one when he ate some fruit, another that just seemed to do it occasionally and randomly. I would not worry about clicking without other symptoms. Do take some time to examine the jaw carefully to check for dislocations, deformities, etc. however.

Tomatos... while some torts get diarrhea from them, Red-foots seem to enjoy them in moderation, or ignore them altogether. They are a bit acidic, but nothing they cannot handle once in a while.

Temps... in that large of a habitat, I would not worry about a small cooler area as long as the trend is in the low-to-mid 80s. It can get tough to heat the whole thing well and the torts can just stay out of the cool area if they don't like it, although I often notice my guys freely selecting cooler areas on occasion.

All in all, it sounds like things are actually going pretty well for you.

 

[Whinhill]

Thanks again,

Her jaw seems to move well and she didn't click until recently.

I should have said tomatoes are an occasional treat (and one of her favorites). Wifey (Sue) says she is behaving pretty normally now and is active and seeking out food.

Ian

 

[Whinhill]

Humm just and update, clicking stopped eating fairly well. But she barfed up tonight's meal so vets tomorrow

 

[Whinhill]

Just a quick update.

Notspot has Pneumonia and is on oral Batryl. Not too bad according to her x-rays and she is still feeding and pooping so fingers crossed

 

[Madkins007]

Well- the good news is that true Pneumonia, a Lower Respiratory Tract Infection, is more responsive to medical intervention than the more common Upper Respiratory Tract Infection.

Good luck- keep us posted, please!

 

[HLogic]

Just one cautionary note with regard to the daily D3... Too much is not a good thing. You can safely reduce the D3 to twice a week. I use calcium carbonate without D3 and add a multivitamin (including D3) weekly.

 

[Whinhill]

Thanks for all the help guy's. We're getting slow, but steady, improvement with her. Off to give her more antibiotics in a few minutes

 

[sara]

My Bert makes clickey noises sometimes. I dont think its anything to worry about. He eats fine and his eyes and nose is clear. sometimes he does it when sleeping, sometimes cause he just feels like it. But i dont think its anything to worry about.

 

[Whinhill]

I didn't worry for some time, but she started to vomit pretty much after ever feeding and that's when we took her to our local herp vet. Her x-rays showered fluid in her right lung. We started her on oral batryl, but changed to injected Florfenicol at 30mg kg bw as this was easier to ensure she got the correct dose. Also Florfenicol is effective against mycoplsmas, which have been suggested as a cause of pneumonia in tortoises.
She's slowly improving she lost 5g in weight since this started, but has been 302-303g for over a week now.

Ian

 

[Whinhill]

Well here we a few weeks on and things are getting better, but not before she took a serious turn for the worst.

As I said we got on top of the pneumonia with antibiotics (Batryl followed by Florenphenicol) then she stopped eating just refused point blank. Then she poo'ed pure 100% nematode worms (a Strongaloidies Sp) and kept pooing them! in 48 hours she went from 303g to 276g the difference being worms!

Well i'm a parasitiologsit so i went in with Pancure, the 10% w/v paste for horsed diluted to the correct dose for her and delivered via a tube to make sure it went in and stayed in (after all she'd stopped eating). Three days of panacure at 50mg/kg then 25mg/kg via a tube. Well that got rid of the worms (every one else was warmed too but mix panacure in mazori and that was easy. She's been tube fed since the 12th November with a paste made of Mazori and squash baby food and has put on about 4g over the two weeks.

But today she ate her fist meal romaine lettuce and a little pumpkin. (we're offering her about 6 different food items a meal just so she can take what she fancies) What a relief, she's now eating with her old relish and looking more like the Notspot of old.

Oh here's one of the worms BTW


sorry can't seem to get the photo to load

 

[Balboa]

That's really odd about the worms, as you were confident, and I can understand why, that there were no worms in her feces. Is it likely to see no sign and still be present, or were they possibly "in-check" until the anti-biotic ravaged her gut fauna? Just curious as it really begs the question of what good a fecal exam does.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Wow quite the medical case here...hopefully you keep having improvement. Thank you so much for sharing and giving an update. I have been told that just one fecal is never a good idea...you need some tests over time to even think you are getting a clear picture, because of parasite life cycles. So, it is very possible to have a huge worm infestation but the one sample you looked at was clean. Especially with extenuating circumstances like the pneumonia. Does the pneumonia cause vomiting, or was that a third thing? Any possibility the original poop you tested wasn't hers? Good luck!

Try this for photos: http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-to-post-pictures-in-your-forum-posts

 

[Whinhill]

Yes that's true I should have known better really than just to check one fecal. Parasite eggs come down in "showers" so you should really do at least three over a few days. And I think this one has a direct life cycle so I shall be regularly worming them all over the winter to make sure I'm on top of it. BAcked up with monthly fecal to keep on top of the the parasite burden.

I think the vomiting was a mix of the two problems.

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just trying the picture again