Thriving VS. Surviving

[Az tortoise compound]

I am very familiar with the Hermann's books being referred too, both are very good books by excellent German authors who have extensive experience with these species in captivity and in the wild. I really don't think the wild growth rates stated in those books are "outrageously slow" at all. I think that they're normal and as they should be in the wild and as they should be strived for in captivity.
I've maintained for nearly three decades now that the majority of tortoises raised in captivity are grown too quickly due to being in constantly excessive heat, fed a diet extremely rich in vitamins and minerals and high in calories. All the things that you stated above are absolutely true. Many of the tortoises shown on this site are examples of that. Several have obvious signs of accelerated growth, due to the above conditions. 2 & 3 year old tortoises wouldn't be adult size and sexually mature if they were in the wild. Many of these types of tortoises that I have personally encountered over the years not only do not look like their wild or correctly raised counterparts, but they are often more "frail" in comparison.
No one here has proof that a captive born and raised tortoise will outlive a wild tortoise, or vice versa. None of us have been around long enough to be able to proof it and probably won't be. Wild caught tortoises in most cases are often up against adverse daily survival challenges. Heat, cold, dryness, flooding, sparse food availability, predators, mankind and more. But over thousands of years they have adapted, survived and in most cases, thrived and expanded their populations (until we got involved). Captive born and/or captive raised tortoises are subject to none of the above, except mankind. Many people pamper them, overfeed them, feed them what is to the tortoise, junkfood. Keep them excessively hot with little to no daily fluctuation, nevermind seasonal changes. Often in a small box that doesn't come remotely close to enough area for normal activity. So the end result is that the captive tortoise takes in far more calories, vitamins and minerals that it's body cannot properly use in the way that it was "designed". Which results in tortoises that grow too rapidly, mature too quickly, often times bumpy, pyramided or appearing as if they're "growing out of their shell" and look (and sometime act), different than they're wild counterparts. I personally don't think we're doing them any favors (or the species any justice) by doing this. Maybe I'm too much of purist, but I constantly strive to raise my tortoises to look and act like they're wild counterparts because that look is part of what attracted me to tortoises and turtles in the first place, not a bumpy, pale skinned tortoise with overgrown beaks and nails.
I know that all of the above practices will continue regardless of what myself or anyone else says. I'm okay with that because while I think it may be wrong, they're not my animals to have any say over. I'll continue to raise mine slow, smooth, healthy and as close as possible to they're wild counterparts as I can under captive conditions. It's what I prefer to do.

Great post!

 

[Saloli]

*captive. I also agree on the topic of replicating the native environment of the species being kept because thats what the are adapted to as species. I also try to replicate natural diets as close as possible (when know). Take for example EBTs they love earth worms which make up a good part of their natural diet so like the nut that most of my friends and family know I am I go worming or I buy earth worms, either way I try to meet that need to the best of my ability. The reason I bring up boxers is like torts (with some exceptions) they are slow growing slow to reach sexual onset (eqivalent to puberty in mammals), and long lived. I don't have much expieiance with torts other than red foots, and russians, so I'm not sure how smart they are compared to Boxers but if they are even if they are not I still think that the should have the minds exersized sometimes for forest dwellers that can mean something as simple as putting a new log in their pen to give them a problem to solve.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I am very familiar with the Hermann's books being referred too, both are very good books by excellent German authors who have extensive experience with these species in captivity and in the wild. I really don't think the wild growth rates stated in those books are "outrageously slow" at all. I think that they're normal and as they should be in the wild and as they should be strived for in captivity.
I've maintained for nearly three decades now that the majority of tortoises raised in captivity are grown too quickly due to being in constantly excessive heat, fed a diet extremely rich in vitamins and minerals and high in calories. All the things that you stated above are absolutely true. Many of the tortoises shown on this site are examples of that. Several have obvious signs of accelerated growth, due to the above conditions. 2 & 3 year old tortoises wouldn't be adult size and sexually mature if they were in the wild. Many of these types of tortoises that I have personally encountered over the years not only do not look like their wild or correctly raised counterparts, but they are often more "frail" in comparison.
No one here has proof that a captive born and raised tortoise will outlive a wild tortoise, or vice versa. None of us have been around long enough to be able to proof it and probably won't be. Wild caught tortoises in most cases are often up against adverse daily survival challenges. Heat, cold, dryness, flooding, sparse food availability, predators, mankind and more. But over thousands of years they have adapted, survived and in most cases, thrived and expanded their populations (until we got involved). Captive born and/or captive raised tortoises are subject to none of the above, except mankind. Many people pamper them, overfeed them, feed them what is to the tortoise, junkfood. Keep them excessively hot with little to no daily fluctuation, nevermind seasonal changes. Often in a small box that doesn't come remotely close to enough area for normal activity. So the end result is that the captive tortoise takes in far more calories, vitamins and minerals that it's body cannot properly use in the way that it was "designed". Which results in tortoises that grow too rapidly, mature too quickly, often times bumpy, pyramided or appearing as if they're "growing out of their shell" and look (and sometime act), different than they're wild counterparts. I personally don't think we're doing them any favors (or the species any justice) by doing this. Maybe I'm too much of purist, but I constantly strive to raise my tortoises to look and act like they're wild counterparts because that look is part of what attracted me to tortoises and turtles in the first place, not a bumpy, pale skinned tortoise with overgrown beaks and nails.
I know that all of the above practices will continue regardless of what myself or anyone else says. I'm okay with that because while I think it may be wrong, they're not my animals to have any say over. I'll continue to raise mine slow, smooth, healthy and as close as possible to they're wild counterparts as I can under captive conditions. It's what I prefer to do.

I like what you said. I will add that we allow our young aldabras to browse at will on natural vegitation. I will also say that they tend to grow slower here, however they are very smooth, strong and heavy compared to those that are kept different.

 

[Tom]

I'm finding this whole discussion pretty interesting. As each of you describes your preferences, your results and why you like it that way, I'm able to infer a lot. I'm so turned off by the "slow growth" thing because it did not give me what I was after (smooth growth), and seems to have permanently stunted what are supposed to be giants. I think a big difference in our experiences might be that the weeds and grazing at the time I was raising these guys was a lot lower than it would be in NY or Florida. Its pretty sparse and dry here, and back in those days I kept most of the weeds out of their pens. I would feed them certain ones that I knew were okay, but avoided most of them due to ignorance. It seems like my idea of feeding them a "normal" amount of food is probably more in line with what you guys have been doing all along with natural grazing.

After all; what is a "moderate" amount of food? My sulcatas eat everything that I give them. Could they eat more? Yes. Do they leave leftovers? No. I suspect that we are all doing similar things, but balancing everything out in our own ways. I don't think anyone wants to induce fast growth by overfeeding. I think we just explain it differently. I'm talking about those of us involved in this discussion, not the few tortoise folks out there that put loads of food and Mazuri out and stuff their tortoises to the gills everyday with grocery store greens. All of my torts of all species have that heavy feel. They are all growing smooth now too. They are all in big outdoor pens, so lots of muscle and strength building exercise.

It is starting to seem to me that through grazing and grocery store supplementation we are all probably feeding a similar "moderate" amount. My sulcata and leopard babies are growing faster than they did for me in my past "sparse" days, but I don't think they are growing all that fast in general. My leopards actually seem to be growing pretty slow, but still nice and steady. Interesting too that between GB, me and Greg, we are talking about small, medium and large, but sort of getting at the same thing. I really wonder how fast my torts are growing compared to their wild counterparts.

 

[GBtortoises]

All other things aside, I think one of the key elemental differences between wild caught and captive born tortoises is diet. There are obviously equally important elements involved in tortoise welfare, but diet to me, is the most notably different between the two scenarios. Almost all wild tortoises, regardless of species and geographical area have access to a diet that is usually very low quality (in terms of nutrition). At least for a good part of there activity season. Therefore most have evolved to consume large amounts of this low nutrition diet in order to sustain themselves. Around this (and their climate) has evolved their active periods, rest periods, mating season and so on.
Then look at the majority of captive raised tortoises-take away most if not all of those environmental hardships, then double, triple, quadriple or more the amount of vitamins and minerals that they're getting, many of which they're body doesn't even require, along with substantially increasing the volume of food on a regular basis. Add that all together with an animal that instinctually eats as much food as possible when it's available.
When I mentioned bumpy shells in my above post I wasn't referring to pyramiding. I'm referring to the affect of individual scutes growing in small, rounded or nearly flat top domes. Pyramiding, as far as we can tell nowadays is linked to lack of moisture content during the growth development period of a tortoise. The smooth bumps that I am referring to are often a later sign of accelerated growth. They're not as pronounced as pyramiding. Other signs can be wider than normal growth rings, exaggerated looking nails, expansive skin tissue between limb scales, excessive clear keratin growth at the edge of the mariginal scutes and more. This is all especially noticeable when comparing an excelerated and regular growth rate tortoise side by side.
I think I can provide a photo comparison of what I'm talking about. I have a couple of Marginateds that I traded someone last fall that have some early signs of accelerated growth. I'm not home but will take some photos and post them later this weekend.

 

[Robert]

For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.

 

[John]

For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.

excellent question

 

[GBtortoises]

For owners in colder climates who follow an indoor winter, outdoor summer routine: have you noticed accelerated growth during the summer months? I'm assuming that the indoor winter months would be higher in store bought/processed diets, scheduled feeding, less natural sunlight, less exercise. The summer months would be just the opposite, grazing, more natural diet, lots of sun etc.

I live in upstate New York, so regrettably, I have to do the routine that you mention above. Young tortoises that I keep awake during the winter absolutely grow at a faster rate indoors than they do outdoors if I don't monitor every aspect of their care to avoid it. It's not 100% avoidable indoors, but any accelerated growth can be "controlled". I don't have a problem with accelerated growth outdoors at all. Once outdoors mine are kept as naturally as possible. Indoors is where the concern is. Accelerated growth takes place for exactly the reasons that you listed. I try to carefully monitor what I feed my tortoises indoors in terms of content and duration between feedings. I fluctuate the room temperature that they're in by opening and closing the door to the room. They are still very active, due to temperatures and light intensity, which is what I want them to be.

 

[Robert]

GBTorts: thanks for that feedback. Exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Tom]

GB, if you ever come to CA I would love for you to come check out my torts and my set-up.

My older torts are out all year long and due to the seasons and intermittent weed growth, I think they are set up pretty close to "natural" all year long. They get the hot and the cold, the longer and shorter days, and all the weather and its variations. My only real question just how much food do I need to provide for them to mimic "natural". From about December to May we get all the rain and waist high weeds. I leave out a flake of grass hay during this time and they all munch on it, but I don't "feed" them much. The just run around and graze all day. I do water the weeds during dry spells to keep them from drying out. From June to November I have to provide them with additional food. Sort of like your indoor season. I throw a lot of mulberry branches in there along with what ever I can scavenge up as far as weeds, cactus and grass clippings.

In my original post I mentioned the new changes making them much healthier and increasing activity and fertility. Their warmer box and additional food, including the Mazuri, seem to have made a positive change in my case, but those are the exact things that you frown on and generally see as a problem for captive torts. This makes me wonder about two possibilities.

Possibility one: Maybe due to the sparse nature of the greenery out here, it is necessary to provide more "artificial" food to meet the nutritional needs that would be met more naturally elsewhere.

Possibility two: Maybe its a good strategy to initially grow them more slowly and naturally, but then try to simulate more natural "optimal time of year" conditions once they are older, grown and reproducing. Mine survived for 10 years on the sparse/natural/slow growth method, but they sure seem to be doing much better on the "mostly natural, but with a little extra help" routine.

I'd love to hear anyones opinions on these things. That's why I put this thread in the debatable section. Between all of the members on this forum there are HUNDREDS of years of combined experience from every sort of climate, species and husbandry method. I always love it when we can gain knowledge from each others experience. I think there is a tremendous amount of insight to be gain from GBs last couple of posts here.

 

[Yvonne G]

My Dudley only grazes on bermuda grass and weeds. I occasionally toss him a couple mulberry branches, but rarely. Once we get the first frost, the bermuda goes dormant, but chickweed and other winter time weeds grow in the pen. Dudley still doesn't get fed. He has to graze on the brown, dead bermuda grass...and he DOES. His winter time poops are slightly blacker and moister than his summer time poops from the moist weeds, but still full of dried blades of grass. He's growing pretty slowly. When I got him he weighed 35lbs and had fertilized several clutches of eggs (he had been half of a breeding pair). It has taken him 13 years to get from 35lbs to 100lbs. I may be all wet, but in my way of thinking, he's living close to a natural lifestyle, the only exception being, the winters here are colder than his home world and are heat supplemented.

 

[Tom]

Sounds pretty close to natural to me. That's pretty similar to what I was doing up until this last year. Mine were certainly growing slowly, and living "naturally" then too.

 

[Yvonne G]

So what you're telling me is he's "surviving," and not "thriving?"

 

[Tom]

So what you're telling me is he's "surviving," and not "thriving?"

I guess I should consider the wider implications of some of my statements before I open my big mouth...

I would like to refer to this paragraph from post #45 above.
"Possibility two: Maybe its a good strategy to initially grow them more slowly and naturally, but then try to simulate more natural "optimal time of year" conditions once they are older, grown and reproducing. Mine survived for 10 years on the sparse/natural/slow growth method, but they sure seem to be doing much better on the "mostly natural, but with a little extra help" routine."

Since Dudley is a fully grown adult male, I'd consider his care and what he needs to "thrive" as different than my little males or young female that are producing eggs every year. Certainly different from my juveniles too.

Do YOU think he is surviving OR thriving? I'll take your word for it either way.

 

[Yvonne G]

I should have put after my last question. I'm happy with his care. It doesn't matter to me if he "thrives." I think he's healthy and content.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I should have put after my last question. I'm happy with his care. It doesn't matter to me if he "thrives." I think he's healthy and content.

And THAT is why I hesitate to have Bob over winter with you. You SHOULD care if he thrives, he is in your care and as such it is your job to make sure he thrives. You are the god of his world, you are the being who provides his only care and food and heat and anything that happens to him. It is your job to make him thrive, that's why I consider sending Bob to you, because I think he is NOT thriving here during the winter. He looks peaked and dehydrated. I know he thrives here all Spring and Summer but he's having a hard time this Winter and I think part of that is because he's not drinking enough and he's having to stay inside his shed too many days. This Winter has been harder on him than any Winter before this. So next Winter Bob will go stay with you and it will be your job to make him thrive...

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Definitely sisters

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Definitely sisters

I do all the fighting and she mostly ignores me...

 

[Saloli]

oh I don't know if any of you guys kow this but Bermuda Grass is accually from Africa both the Sahal (where Salcutas are from) and east Africa. This means there is a good chance the eat it naturally.