quick question about bok choy

[derekdehaas]

Today I ran to the store to get some more tort food and along with bok choy I thought eh why not pick one up after I read a post on here on sticky above. Then I thought why not search bok choy on here and came up with one saying that it would be good to offer it to once/twice a year.

So can I feed my greek tort some bok choy along with lots of other greens that I have.
Thanks

 

[Yvonne G]

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen

You can feed bok choy occasionally, but don't get in the habit of feeding it all the time.

 

[derekdehaas]

Thanks. I guess I would rather not give it to her at all but I already gave her some today along with broccoli rabe, mustard/curly greens, endive and collard green today.
I used to give her daneilon all the time with other green till I saw somewhere on here that it should be offered few times in small amounts so I just stop feeding it instead because I want everything to be almost perfect lol.

 

[Yvonne G]

Broccoli rabe and collards are in the same family as bok choy.

 

[derekdehaas]

I am learning something new today All the greens that I give her should I keep up? or less it? thanks again

---

By the way I am going to try and get a pic of the tort and her set up over at the caging section so that way you guys don't get bored with bok chy subject

 

[Stephanie Logan]

By the way I am going to try and get a pic of the tort and her set up over at the caging section so that way you guys don't get bored with bok chy subject

Bring it on!

 

[derekdehaas]

I'm gettin there.....

 

[tortoisenerd]

I would try to add in more lettuces like the endive to the diet if you can't get weeds, because you are feeding a lot in the same families that can cause excess urates and interfere with calcium absorption (oxalic acid content in mustard, collard, dandelion, and broccoli rabe is high). I would recommend spring mix. Also, turnip greens are a great green that is very low in oxalic acid. I personally would not feed bok choy or broccoli rabe but it is a matter of opinion. I try to feed greens that are balance of those low in oxalic acid with those that are higher. Best wishes.

 

[derekdehaas]

I would try to add in more lettuces like the endive to the diet if you can't get weeds, because you are feeding a lot in the same families that can cause excess urates and interfere with calcium absorption (oxalic acid content in mustard, collard, dandelion, and broccoli rabe is high). I would recommend spring mix. Also, turnip greens are a great green that is very low in oxalic acid. I personally would not feed bok choy or broccoli rabe but it is a matter of opinion. I try to feed greens that are balance of those low in oxalic acid with those that are higher. Best wishes.

Thanks for the advice. I always get turnip greens and spring mix anyway. I hate picking out the spinach lol.

Also my wife and I could not get the pics posted sorry.

 

[Madkins007]

Just because I am a contrary kind of guy, and this is just my opinion based on my research...

Goiterogens and brassicas (Bok Choy, broccolli, caulifower, cabbage, kale, mustard greens, etc.) are not considered a problem by most nutrition experts- although they have gotten a bad reputation. The thing is- these plants are low in iodine and/or high in chemicals that can lead to goiter. But- iodine is common in many other plants, especially the 'dark leafy greens' in enough quantity to offset the lack in the brassicas as long as you don't overdo it them

It used to be pretty common to feed Galapagos tortoises lots of cheap cabbage, kale, and other brassicas (they eat a lot so you used cheap food.) These animal's wild diet was rather high in iodine, so they got goiters when it was lacking. On the other hand, feeding Mediterranean torts cabbage was common a few decades ago, and few of them got goiter because they needed so little iodine in their diet.

Now- most experts would tell you that the brassicas are fine- in moderation. Many have a nice Ca: P ratio and are loaded with vitamins, moisture, fiber, etc... just toss in some other dark leafy greens as well to make sure they get some iodine. In other words- they are part of a varied diet and the animals have good cares.

Some Sources:
- http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=47
- http://www.reptilechannel.com/turtles-and-tortoises/tortoise-care/turtle-tortoise-goiter.aspx

Oxalates are a similar story. First of all, a lot of oxalate measurements are done on cooked plants, and heat activates the acid. Next, vitamin A cancels some of the effect, and a lot of high oxalate plants are high in vitamin A. Also, the oxalate levels differ in a given plant by age, freshness, and part of the plant.

Oxalates bind calcium, but they do not bind it randomly- they only bind with the calcium in that plant- not all of the calcium in the diet. There is also a difference between soluble and insoluble oxalates- solubles wash right out.

Reptile vets are unsure of the role oxalates play in bladder stones and other problems. Dehydration is generally considered the real problem with the oxalates making stones because there is too little water to wash them away.

It is also well-known that wild tortoises freely eat plants that are considered toxic to humans because of the high levels of oxalates. While bladder stones do occur in wild tortoises, there seems to be.

In other words, there is no real evidence that it is necessary to pick out every spinach leaf from Spring Mix or to treat foods with moderate levels of oxalates to be poisonous... when they are part of a varied diet and the tortoises have good cares.

Some Sources:
- http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml
- http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400344/Avoid-Vegetables-with-Oxalic-Acid.html



Or, to put it another way... if we feed our tortoises a variety of nutritious foods, the problems of one food item are usually offset by another. We also need to remember that hydration, heat, and other issues are important in good nutrition as well.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Leave it to Madkins to post the most-researched opinion!

It does remind me that tortoises "in the wild" have very sketchy dietary success by strict nutritional standards. Still, most keepers seem to want to get their torty's diet as "perfect" as possible.

Most of you have more than enough room for error with your perfectly formed and meticulously cared for chelonians, so you can lean a little in one direction or take measured risks from time to time.

I'm stuck knowing that it is all but too late to do anything more than try to keep Taco alive and as comfortable as possible.

It's hard not to be envious.

 

[derekdehaas]

Intresting! I will have to check out the link that one of you gave. Maybe I do need to open up a bit and provide a lot in the mixtures while some plants I can give once in a while. Thanks very much for taking the time typing all this and I will double read it later.

Also good news guys I think I got it to post over on the enclosure forum so keep your eyes peeled!

 

[-EJ]

Another perspective...

Calcium Oxalate... very insouable.

Oxalic acid... highly reactive with any available calcium... leading to the above.

Many plants are very high in Calcium Oxalate... not a problem to feed.

Many plants are also high in Oxalic acid... this can lead to problems.

If you focus on this sort of thing... note the difference.

Just because I am a contrary kind of guy, and this is just my opinion based on my research...

Goiterogens and brassicas (Bok Choy, broccolli, caulifower, cabbage, kale, mustard greens, etc.) are not considered a problem by most nutrition experts- although they have gotten a bad reputation. The thing is- these plants are low in iodine and/or high in chemicals that can lead to goiter. But- iodine is common in many other plants, especially the 'dark leafy greens' in enough quantity to offset the lack in the brassicas as long as you don't overdo it them

It used to be pretty common to feed Galapagos tortoises lots of cheap cabbage, kale, and other brassicas (they eat a lot so you used cheap food.) These animal's wild diet was rather high in iodine, so they got goiters when it was lacking. On the other hand, feeding Mediterranean torts cabbage was common a few decades ago, and few of them got goiter because they needed so little iodine in their diet.

Now- most experts would tell you that the brassicas are fine- in moderation. Many have a nice Ca: P ratio and are loaded with vitamins, moisture, fiber, etc... just toss in some other dark leafy greens as well to make sure they get some iodine. In other words- they are part of a varied diet and the animals have good cares.

Some Sources:
- http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=47
- http://www.reptilechannel.com/turtles-and-tortoises/tortoise-care/turtle-tortoise-goiter.aspx

Oxalates are a similar story. First of all, a lot of oxalate measurements are done on cooked plants, and heat activates the acid. Next, vitamin A cancels some of the effect, and a lot of high oxalate plants are high in vitamin A. Also, the oxalate levels differ in a given plant by age, freshness, and part of the plant.

Oxalates bind calcium, but they do not bind it randomly- they only bind with the calcium in that plant- not all of the calcium in the diet. There is also a difference between soluble and insoluble oxalates- solubles wash right out.

Reptile vets are unsure of the role oxalates play in bladder stones and other problems. Dehydration is generally considered the real problem with the oxalates making stones because there is too little water to wash them away.

It is also well-known that wild tortoises freely eat plants that are considered toxic to humans because of the high levels of oxalates. While bladder stones do occur in wild tortoises, there seems to be.

In other words, there is no real evidence that it is necessary to pick out every spinach leaf from Spring Mix or to treat foods with moderate levels of oxalates to be poisonous... when they are part of a varied diet and the tortoises have good cares.

Some Sources:
- http://growingtaste.com/oxalicacid.shtml
- http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400344/Avoid-Vegetables-with-Oxalic-Acid.html



Or, to put it another way... if we feed our tortoises a variety of nutritious foods, the problems of one food item are usually offset by another. We also need to remember that hydration, heat, and other issues are important in good nutrition as well.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I am so glad to see that about the Oxalates, I wasn't one to pick out the spinach in the Spring Mix and Bob's pen is FULL of clover, he eats it by the ton all summer, and he seems to be pretty healthy to me. I have gotten reamed for feeding clover anyhow...thanks for the informative posts, Madkins, interesting as always...

 

[Madkins007]

Just as long as no one comes yelling at me that they fed their tortoise nothing but spinach and kale for a year and it died and it was all my fault!