Leopard tortoise

[davidheffernan]

Hi guys,

I recently bought a trio of leopard tortoise, but unfortunately one of them died after 5 days.
The breeder (who shipped from UK to Ireland) offered me 20% off my next purchase, or a replacement. As you can imagine, I have not taken up his "generous" offer.
My worry now is that I have two and from reading all posts here, I should separate them of get another?...
Any advice please?
I'd be very interested in hearing from Tom in particular.

Thanks in advance

Dave

 

[Jay Bagley]

Very sorry for your loss.

 

[KarenSoCal]

I'm sorry you lost your tortoise.
Generally, 2 do not get along. But even 3 getting along is largely dependent on gender and age.
Do you know the gender and age of your remaining 2? And of the one that passed?
And how much space are they being housed in?
These are questions I believe Tom will want to know.
I'll tag him...
@Tom

 

[davidheffernan]

I'm sorry you lost your tortoise.
Generally, 2 do not get along. But even 3 getting along is largely dependent on gender and age.
Do you know the gender and age of your remaining 2? And of the one that passed?
And how much space are they being housed in?
These are questions I believe Tom will want to know.
I'll tag him...
@Tom

They hatched in 2016 so they're about 4-5 inches. The breeder told me that he would give me one male and two females but I am not 100% sure about sexing- I could attach pics when I'm home from work tonight?
They were supposed to be 4-5 cm, (breeder told me) so I have the in a large tortoise table (150cm x 90cm). I am in the process of building a new enclosure for them as I'm 100% sure it's way too small for the little guys. I let them out as much as I can so they can move and stretch the legs.
I've been doing everything on the care sheets that Tom attached.

 

[davidheffernan]

Very sorry for your loss.

Thanks, it's so heartbreaking. I only had him 5 days but the vet said he was just stressed from the change of scenery, but here in Ireland, there are literally no vets that know anything about tortoise.

 

[KarenSoCal]

They hatched in 2016 so they're about 4-5 inches. The breeder told me that he would give me one male and two females but I am not 100% sure about sexing- I could attach pics when I'm home from work tonight?
They were supposed to be 4-5 cm, (breeder told me) so I have the in a large tortoise table (150cm x 90cm). I am in the process of building a new enclosure for them as I'm 100% sure it's way too small for the little guys. I let them out as much as I can so they can move and stretch the legs.
I've been doing everything on the care sheets that Tom attached.

I know nothing about Leopards in particular, but I do know 2 things: If you are following Tom's care sheets, you are doing things properly, and...most torts are no where near "sexable" at 2 years old, unless Leopards are an exception.
Please do attach pics, including shots of their plastrons and tails, and their table. Others will be able to help you make improvements, if there are any to be made.

 

[teresaf]

They can't be sexed at that age... Breeders try to temp sex them which is just raising the temp to get females during incubation... And lowering to get males

 

[Jay Bagley]

Thanks, it's so heartbreaking. I only had him 5 days but the vet said he was just stressed from the change of scenery, but here in Ireland, there are literally no vets that know anything about tortoise.

You are very welcome. I hope you don't have to experience anything like that ever again. I wish you the best of luck with your other two. I don't have any good reptile vets by me either. The only exotic vet even close to me after talking to, I dont think she couldn't tell the difference between a tortoise and a rock.

 

[davidheffernan]

Here are a few pic of my two darlings

 

[davidheffernan]

I'll post pics of the setup when I get a chance [emoji16]

 

[wellington]

If it were me, I would take him up on his offer. Things can all be done correctly and one just fails to survive.
You should separate them. They both look male too me although they are still a little young for it to be 100%. My leopard males showed their manhood around 3 years of age. Even if you had two females and one male there's still a chance they would need to be separated unless they are in a very large enclosure with sight barriers.
The two you have are nice looking Leo's. The death could have had something to do with shipping, how they were shipped, or was sickly when shipped. Like a lot of wild animals, they don't show they are sick until it's already progressed. It could have just been one that was not thriving and the shipping took its toll.
Do you know how they were raised before you got them? Were they shipped in one box together?
Sorry for your loss.

 

[Lyn W]

Hi David and welcome.
Sorry you lost one of your torts.
I am in Wales and have a leopard tort - quite a bit bigger than yours and possibly about 7 years old (he was found in a field 4 years ago so I know nothing about him before that). He has his own adapted room as he is too big for a table or viv. Like all torts he doesn't like company and even if I sit on his floor he will try to barge me out of the way, so I am sure he wouldn't like a second tort.
The caresheets are a great guide especially for getting the diet and temps right because as you know they need higher temps throughout the year than the usual torts available in our part of the world.
So read through and ask as many questions as you need there are plenty of very experienced leopard keepers who will be happy to help.
The Beginners Mistakes thread (link below) is also a good help and the Enclosures thread has lots of great ideas.
Also check here before investing in any equipment to make sure you get the safest for your torts and it will save you some money.

 

[Lyn W]

Thanks, it's so heartbreaking. I only had him 5 days but the vet said he was just stressed from the change of scenery, but here in Ireland, there are literally no vets that know anything about tortoise.

Try contacting The UCD School of Veterinary Science (or if that's nowhere near you google to see if there is one closer) They may be able to help you find a vet who has studied herpetology David.
It pays to know these things well in advance just in case they are needed.

 

[davidheffernan]

Try contacting The UCD School of Veterinary Science (or if that's nowhere near you google to see if there is one closer) They may be able to help you find a vet who has studied herpetology David.
It pays to know these things well in advance just in case they are needed.

Thanks Lyn, I never thought of that. Definitely a great idea [emoji16]

 

[Lyn W]

Thanks Lyn, I never thought of that. Definitely a great idea [emoji16]

It took me ages to find a decent exotic animal vet. I found a group by googling. They don't have their own surgery but have partner practices so visit other vets on certain days. It's not ideal because I have to travel to wherever they are on a given day but they are more specialised than most vets.

 

[davidheffernan]

If it were me, I would take him up on his offer. Things can all be done correctly and one just fails to survive.
You should separate them. They both look male too me although they are still a little young for it to be 100%. My leopard males showed their manhood around 3 years of age. Even if you had two females and one male there's still a chance they would need to be separated unless they are in a very large enclosure with sight barriers.
The two you have are nice looking Leo's. The death could have had something to do with shipping, how they were shipped, or was sickly when shipped. Like a lot of wild animals, they don't show they are sick until it's already progressed. It could have just been one that was not thriving and the shipping took its toll.
Do you know how they were raised before you got them? Were they shipped in one box together?
Sorry for your loss.

They were shipped in one box by ferry. It took a day and a half of traveling in total. I was told they were housed together in an open tortoise table.
I've been looking for good ideas for a big outdoor enclosure which I hope to build asap, the problem is the lovely Irish weather so I want to do it 100% correctly.

 

[davidheffernan]

Hi David and welcome.
Sorry you lost one of your torts.
I am in Wales and have a leopard tort - quite a bit bigger than yours and possibly about 7 years old (he was found in a field 4 years ago so I know nothing about him before that). He has his own adapted room as he is too big for a table or viv. Like all torts he doesn't like company and even if I sit on his floor he will try to barge me out of the way, so I am sure he wouldn't like a second tort.
The caresheets are a great guide especially for getting the diet and temps right because as you know they need higher temps throughout the year than the usual torts available in our part of the world.
So read through and ask as many questions as you need there are plenty of very experienced leopard keepers who will be happy to help.
The Beginners Mistakes thread (link below) is also a good help and the Enclosures thread has lots of great ideas.
Also check here before investing in any equipment to make sure you get the safest for your torts and it will save you some money.

Do you have an outdoor enclosure for your tort? Or do you keep him in the room?
And what size space do I need.
The breeder tried to sell me an open table with the trio I bought, but I declined in favour of the bigger one I bought myself in the end. Just as well too, I can only imagine how cramped they would be.
I'm looking for good ideas and our climate is generally the same....

 

[wellington]

The one box is a problem and that shouldn't happen unless they were separated within the one box. The day and a half isn't that bad. It's usually over night here in the US but some have been lost in shipping for a couple days and were fine.
The stress of the one box could be the problem.

 

[Lyn W]

Do you have an outdoor enclosure for your tort? Or do you keep him in the room?
And what size space do I need.
The breeder tried to sell me an open table with the trio I bought, but I declined in favour of the bigger one I bought myself in the end. Just as well too, I can only imagine how cramped they would be.
I'm looking for good ideas and our climate is generally the same....

Yes he has an outside enclosure but only when ground temps are at least 70'F do I let him use it. You will find a digital temp gun very useful for spot checking temps. When it is warm and sunny enough he can let himself in and out as he pleases but he isn't keen on being out even though he has plants for cover etc. He is always in at night even in the summer because our weather is too cold and wet to house them outdoors and it is safer to have him inside.
His room is about 8 x 11 and he has the radiator on 24/7/365 as well as a mvb bulb which gives heat light and uvb in one, and he also has a ceramic heating element run through a thermostat for extra night heat. He has rubber mats on most of the floor and trays of substrate with plants etc His hide is the top of a covered cat litter tray and the bottom part serves as his bath. As he grows he will need a bigger room.
I think a table would be far too small for your torts size - I would think 4 x 6 per tort would be a minimum but someone who has had small leopards will be able to advise on that.

 

[Lyn W]

My outside enclosure is a fenced off area with a large patch of grass with tort friendly plants (like dandelions, clover, plantain) in it. See The Tortoise Table website for ideas.,
It is in a sunny spot sheltered from the wind but with shady areas too and nowhere near any chemical use (weed killers etc)
It has sight barriers at tort height because torts will spend all their time trying to escape if they can see through the fence.
I use a plant saucer for water - big enough for him to self soak in and drink from but shallow enough to be safe.
I have a old plastic box with a side cut out so that he can tuck himself away if he wants.
He likes to just wander in and out though, but when he gets used to going out he will spend longer out there basking on sunny days.