Leopard doesn't like his new pad?

[DTSS]

Hi everyone,

We have a Leopard that we have been raising for the last year. We got him as a hatching and he's about the size of a softball now.

A little history: He eats like a pig. Every morning when we put fresh food in he hauls butt out of his cover and attacks his food until its gone. Then we usually feed him again in the afternoon and he goes to town again. His name is Piglet. He gets a good diet and a supplement on his food every few days. He gets soaked every three days and we offer shallow water in his enclosure because sometimes he like to sit in it.

We just moved him into a 30 gal enclosure three days ago. We figure this will be his last until we build an enclosure outside. There is a small heating pad under the tank where he sleeps that keeps the peat moss at around 70. There is also a blue "moon light" at night that keeps the ambient air around his cover at about 75. During the day his spot UV light and florescent UV comes on. This provides a basking temp of 95, and an ambient of around 85.

His appetite has decreased dramatically since the move. He just comes out a few times a day, nibbles a little bit, then goes back into his cover. He looks the same, no discharge or anything but doesn't seems as active or hungry anymore. The temps are in line with the old enclosure so I really can't see what has changed.

Is this normal behavior? My wife is freaking out because she loves the little guy and so do I. All comments are greatly appreciated!

Matt

 

[cvalda]

What was he in before?

 

[DTSS]

15 gal tank with heating pad, spot light, and florescent UV.

 

[cvalda]

It could be that he's still adjusting.

But as a general rule, keeping tortoises in glass tanks is not good for them, so hopefully he'll be in that for only a short short time - it's like an oven and doesn't offer the heat gradient they need. It would be better to have him in a large wooden box or a plastic storage tote. Also undertank heaters are not a good idea as they do burn easily. An overhead basking light of some sort would be much more ideal.

As for more specific needs, I'll leave that to the Leopard experts!

Good luck!

 

[JustAnja]

Glass tanks also do not allow for adequate air flow, plus the needed temperature gradient.

A rubbermaid tote with lower sides or a box constructed of wood like Kelly suggested will work better. Even an indoor rabbit cage will work nicely. They make a 4ft indoor rabbit cage that retails for about $90. You can even use a concrete mixing tub from the hardware store in a pinch, they are about $10. (you can search for concrete mixing tub and also rabbit cage on this forum and find some that I use, they will be in the Enclosures forum.

http://tortoiseforum.org/enclosures-f-7.html


A Leopard will need a warm end at about 90 with a basking spot of 100-110. His cool end should be about 70, his hide spot should be on this end. The undertank heater is not suggested for tortoises. A ceramic heat emitter or a large watt basking bulb would be much better to add to his UVB lighting. Tortoises have to thermoregulate their bodies so go back and forth between a cooler area and a warmer area to do so.

 

[DTSS]

A Leopard will need a warm end at about 90 with a basking spot of 100-110. His cool end should be about 70, his hide spot should be on this end.

I just checked this tank with a laser thermometer. The cool end is 70, his hot spot is 103, and everywhere else is about 85.

I really appreciate the advice on glass tanks and all that but please keep in mind that this is not a new tortoise. He has been living like this for a year and has been growing like crazy. This all changed when I put him in a new enclosure.

So it sound like my temperature gradient is fine. Any other suggestions?

 

[Crazy1]

Matt, I am not an advocate of glass tanks, but I know those that have used them successfully especially with small torts. That being said, and since everything else is about the same as the 15 gal. tank perhaps it’s the size of the tank itself. You now have increased the size of his world by almost double. We look at it as a good thing, that we are giving them more room. They may look at it as scary and open and makes them more vulnerable. Perhaps it will take some time for him to feel secure in the new larger size tank. Some torts don’t seem to adjust quickly to larger areas, or change. Just my opinion

 

[DTSS]

You now have increased the size of his world by almost double. We look at it as a good thing, that we are giving them more room. They may look at it as scary and open and makes them more vulnerable. Perhaps it will take some time for him to feel secure in the new larger size tank. Some torts don’t seem to adjust quickly to larger areas, or change. Just my opinion

You could be right Robyn. Today was a better day. He was out cruising around a lot today and ate a good deal of food. So hopefully this is just an adjustment period. We will keep an eye on him for the next few days.

Now...

I am the the kind of person that likes to do things the right way, regardless of cost. I am also not new to raising reptiles. But I am having some trouble with some of the things said about glass tanks. I am not trying to be argumentative and start a debate, because I really only care about whats best for my tort. So please help me understand some of the comments.

Like:
1. "You can't get the temp gradient you need with glass." Obviously you can if my tank is 70 degrees on one side and 103 on the other. (85-87 in the middle)
2. "Its like an oven" How? Any enclosure can be an oven with too much heat applied. If you monitor your temps to determine the proper wattage of your heat sources, how is this different than anything else?
3. "Glass tanks also do not allow for adequate air flow" And wood or plastic ones do? How is the airflow from a solid wall plastic or wood enclosure with an open top different from a glass enclosure with an open top? Air can only come from the top of any of these enclosures.

AGAIN, Im not arguing or debating, just trying to understand the thought process. Thanks.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi DTSS: You've raised all the points I've always wanted to make, but was too chicken to try. Yes, an aquarium could be an oven or have no temp gradient, or have no air flow if you place a tight fitting cover on it. But the same would hold true with a plastic tub.

My reasoning for not using a glass aquarium is that the little guy inside has no concept of a wall you can see through and they spend all their time trying to walk through it. Its easier to put them into a large plastic tub than trying to cover the glass walls so the animal can't see out. I just like plastic better. (and a Sterilite or Rubbermaid tub is Wa-a-a-ay cheaper than an aquarium)

Yvonne

 

[JustAnja]

........nevermind

 

[DTSS]

........nevermind

What's your problem? You have changed your response three times.????

Sorry, but like most people, when someone tells me I shouldn't do something I ask why. I didn't say you were wrong and our tort is not a piece of "furniture" like you stated in the post you removed just because he is in a glass tank. He very important to us and thats why I started this post in the first place. Lighten up.

 

[JustAnja]

Sorry but do you think your the first one to ask these things.......

 

[JustAnja]

Every one comes on and asks *what could be wrong with my tort?* but no one ever really wants to hear what anyone has to say. I think I might need a break from TFO.

 

[cvalda]

http://tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm

I think the only thing left out in that article is that many torts (tho' not all) can feel very stressed out in glass tanks because they can see out - so they want to go out but can't due to the glass (something they totally don't understand) and this causes a lot of stress.

(be sure to follow the link off that article to "heating" to read about using heat pads and under tank heaters)

 

[DTSS]

http://tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm

I think the only thing left out in that article is that many torts (tho' not all) can feel very stressed out in glass tanks because they can see out - so they want to go out but can't due to the glass (something they totally don't understand) and this causes a lot of stress.

(be sure to follow the link off that article to "heating" to read about using heat pads and under tank heaters)

Thank you for that link. There is some good information there. A little education on why so many are opposed to glass is all I was asking. We will re-think his housing because this needs to last another year until his enclosure is built outside.

Thank you and everyone else that had an intelligent response.

Matt

 

[Crazy1]

Matt, The enclosure we are talking about are generally larger enclosure with shorter sides than an aquarium. When we discuss Rubbermaid containers we are talking about short sided sweater type or under bed type totes. Plastic or wooden ones you can make holes in to allow for better air flow and transfer of humidity.
Generally it is felt that tortoises do much better in a non glass enclosure.
1- because it is difficult to adjust the humidity. Humidity is usually higher in a glass enclosure
2- the sides of the plastic totes and tort tables are much lower thus allowing for better air flow
Which can help with the humidity and temps.
3- the see through walls are a problem but can be easily remedied.
4- A lot of people have difficulty with their temp gradients. Especially with a small tank or a square tank. Glass
tanks have higher sides and tend to hold in the heat.
Like most people when I got my first torts I had them in a square glass container for a year. They were adults and the 40 gal was much too small but that is all I had. And I didn’t know any better. That is what the Pet shop had told me would be fine for my torts. I did have difficulty with the temps. I also had an under tank heat pad. small but effective. My torts survived. I found they did not gain weight nor did they lose any. I know now that all the pacing they did was because they were stressed, I’m not sure if this is because it was glass though they couldn’t see through it. But I know it was way to small for two 6 inch adult torts. It didn’t appear that they sustained any ill effects from this. They spent one winter in this while I built their outdoor enclosure. They are now living the good life outside or in a large tort table I set up this winter. When I had the DT hatchlings I placed them in the Glass tank to help get the humidity up a bit. The tank was long and I was better able to regulate my temps and humidity. During the time I had them I was able to put weight on them and harden their soft shells.
But as I said in general I do not advocate glass tanks. I feel a low sided container that is of adequate size for the tort is the better option.

This, I feel is one of those areas each person has their own personal preference. Which is not necessarily wrong or right but just is? Some use Glass tanks with success, some do not. Some people make it a hard and fast rule NO GLASS TANKS; I feel their hearts are in the right place, they just want the best for the tort. A lot of people just don’t go to the trouble of joining a forum like ours or researching the correct care of their tort species. Lets face it a lot of people don’t understand how to correct a wrong temp gradient or humidity. If they even have a thermometer or hydrometer. So the little tort lives in a bad habitat. A lot of rescuers see torts that are in distress are in small glass tanks. Like the one that Jen just rescued. Pet stores often sell torts with small glass tanks and care sheets with the wrong advice. Which I am sure only adds to most tort owners (on this forum) dread of using Glass tanks.
Also torts are one of those animals that take a long time to see results of distress and by the time one sees it, it may be too late to reverse the effects. Better to start off with what is best, tried and proven, than take the chance of disaster striking. I figure I will learn from the many mistakes of others. That is one reason I am on this forum like so many to get advice and learn what is best for my tort. Just my thoughts and my reasons I do not advocate glass tanks.

 

[DTSS]

A lot of people just don’t go to the trouble of joining a forum like ours or researching the correct care of their tort species.

Oh I totally agree! And thank you so much for taking the time to explain your comments in such great detail! It makes much more sense to me now.

I am thinking now that I might move up the time table for an outdoor enclosure. I have already partitioned off a large section of my yard with a 6' chain link fencing to keep my dogs out and am planning a brick enclosure inside of that.

This seems like a good place to post my plans and gather opinions and suggestions. I'll do that in another thread when I get the drawings done.

Thanks again.

 

[Crazy1]

Matt, I'll look forward to seeing your plans and the finished enclosure.

 

[JustAnja]

Matt I do apologize for my haste last night, I just get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again and 9 times out of 10 the person asking for help doesnt like what we have to say because its not what they want to hear. I think im just going to take a break from posting and replying for a while to clear my head.

 

[DTSS]

Matt I do apologize for my haste last night, I just get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again and 9 times out of 10 the person asking for help doesnt like what we have to say because its not what they want to hear. I think im just going to take a break from posting and replying for a while to clear my head.

Ahh no worries. You should see me before I've had my coffee.