How soft are hatchling's plastron suppose to be?

[fifthdawn]

I've read it turns hard pretty quickly after they hatch. They're born in 09 but not sure which month. They're roughly 2 inches. 2.5 inches at most. I can't find my ruler, I'm using half of my thumb as 1 inch.

When I pick them up to examine them, the rest of the shell is hard except the bottom. Well not all fo the bottom is soft, the side is pretty hard, the soft spot seems to be the middle where belly button would be if they had one. It sort of concaves in. After I fed them, it felt much harder and less concaved, but overall its still soft. It gives in if I push on it lightly.

I've been feeding them properly I believe. This is about my 1st week almost 2nd week having them. Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday I feed them spring mix and endives. On Wednesday and Saturday I feed them apple, pears, and strawverries. On Sunday I feed them Purina's kitten show, which had the highest protein and calcium%. 40% protein and 1.2% calcium and I sprinkle calcium supplement 2:0 calchophorus ration with V3 added.

Am I missing something? Temps around 80-90 degrees and humidity is 65-70, if it makes a difference in hardness.

 

[cdmay]

What you are describing is pretty normal for small hatchlings. The plastron is the last part of the shell to harden off and like you have found, for a time you can see how much they eat by the way it bulges out or sinks in.
But in general this should stop by the time they are 2.5 inches. Then again, it depends on how large they were as hatchlings and how old they are. I have hatched some enormous eggs that produced correspondingly huge hatchlings and so even when they were 2.5 inches they showed signs of being newly hatched. Other times small hatchlings have a completely hard shell at 2 inches.
Feed them properly, give them the water they need and a humid area to rest in and they will be OK.

 

[Meg90]

I think you are keeping them too cool. 90 is not that hot. Our bodies are at 98F all the time. And we all know how much effect a few degrees can have---it can be the difference between feeling sick, and feeling fine.

My little Greek has been here since she was 6 wks old, now, she's about 14wks. Her plastron has never been soft, and trust me, I've kept an eye on that because sometimes it can be a warning sign of things to come. When people started posting about soft babies, I went over to Nova's enclosure, and picked her little butt up and poked at her. Her plaston has the slightest, slightest give, similar to pushing on the skin over a clenched knuckle bone (I wanted to give you something you could try on yourself to see for example) its there---but I can in no way dent her shell, and it does not become concave.

I am 90% positive you have the wrong supplement. You should be using Ca without D3 and I haven't ever heard anything about phosphorous. I use Repti Calcium w/out D3 its ultrafine precipitated Ca carbonate.

Sometimes soft shell is caused by under supplementation.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I agree that the hatchling should still have a little give to it. What you keep an eye on more so is that it only is getting more hard, not any softer. Yes, some supplements do have a ratio of calcium and phosphorus. I prefer the pure calcium, no D3 for torts with UVB.

 

[fifthdawn]

Well, my torts have no UVB so I figured the D3 would make up for it. I only sprinkle a little. I added a cuttlebone but I really doubt they'll much on it at that size.

Also 2:0 calchos ratio isn't pure calcium? I'll have to order new supplement then with a stronger heat emitter. For turtles, the water temps should be 78 degrees and basking is 95 degrees. So I originally thought 80-85ish should be right. But I guess I'll have to switch to a 100w CHE.

Thanks

 

[Madkins007]

Fifth... for TEMPERATE water turtles, the temps are in the 80-85 range, but Red-foots are TROPICAL tortoises, aim for 85-90ish.

Slightly springy plastrons are normal- emphasis on 'springy'. It should not feel leathery or mushy.

Ca: P of 2:0 would be pure calcium.

Let's look at that diet. In my opinion, based on my limited keeping and research, it is not optimal. You've got lots of calories, mediocre fiber, so-so calcium, etc. going on.

You can use http://www.redfoots.com diet as a starter- high calcium foods with good balance and such. You'll notice, for example, that he chooses a much lower in protein cat chow and in fact does not offer protein to hatchlings under about 6 months old.

I prefer to tweak Terry's diet in a few simple ways.
- Days 1, 2, 4, and 5- greens and lettuces, with added grasses or hays. (Cut rabbit hay, crushed hay cubes or pellets, leaves from safe outdoor plants, etc.)
- Day 3- vegetables, mostly mushrooms, and 'veggies with seeds'- squash, bell peppers, eggplant, etc. with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 6- regular fruit, per Terry's list, with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 7- once a month, I offer worms, bugs, pinkies, cooked chicken, or oily fish. The other days I offer a treat- a fancy fruit, ear of corn or other infrequent 'treats', etc.

You are also going to want to work on humidity, since it DOES affect hardness and development- try to get at least some part, especially the hide, to about 90%+.

 

[fifthdawn]

Hmm, I'll tweak whatever I can.

The humidity..I bought a repti fogger so hopefully that should raise it. I notice the CHE is really messing with the humidity. When I turn it off, it jumps to 80 and 90 sometimes. I think its probably because the humidity gage is pretty close to the CHE.

I just had all my strawberries and blueberries molded up, I only used 2 of each.. lol. I guess apples and peaches work better.

The greens is probably hardest to work with. I thought endives were on the higher end of the calcium plants. I get so confused going through the grocery store. I've never heard of 80% of the green and I can't really remember all the greens. I pretty much just avoid spinach and kale and go for the darkest green veggie unless I recognize a name I remember seeing on a list.

My bag of spring mix...decomposed or something. It turned musshy and black so I had to throw that out too...It pretty much melted. 1/4 of the bag was black water.

 

[terryo]

Fifth... for TEMPERATE water turtles, the temps are in the 80-85 range, but Red-foots are TROPICAL tortoises, aim for 85-90ish.

Slightly springy plastrons are normal- emphasis on 'springy'. It should not feel leathery or mushy.

Ca: P of 2:0 would be pure calcium.

Let's look at that diet. In my opinion, based on my limited keeping and research, it is not optimal. You've got lots of calories, mediocre fiber, so-so calcium, etc. going on.

You can use http://www.redfoots.com diet as a starter- high calcium foods with good balance and such. You'll notice, for example, that he chooses a much lower in protein cat chow and in fact does not offer protein to hatchlings under about 6 months old.

I prefer to tweak Terry's diet in a few simple ways.
- Days 1, 2, 4, and 5- greens and lettuces, with added grasses or hays. (Cut rabbit hay, crushed hay cubes or pellets, leaves from safe outdoor plants, etc.)
- Day 3- vegetables, mostly mushrooms, and 'veggies with seeds'- squash, bell peppers, eggplant, etc. with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 6- regular fruit, per Terry's list, with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 7- once a month, I offer worms, bugs, pinkies, cooked chicken, or oily fish. The other days I offer a treat- a fancy fruit, ear of corn or other infrequent 'treats', etc.

You are also going to want to work on humidity, since it DOES affect hardness and development- try to get at least some part, especially the hide, to about 90%+.

Just wondering Mark...why did you "tweak Terry's diet"? Did you feel it was lacking in something? Just curious.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Could someone explain to me how a supplement with a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio only has calcium, and not phosphorus? I would think it has both ingredients...

fifthdawn-I take a simpler approach to diet. I always buy spring mix, and vary the brands and look for the most ingredients (take care to identify what is in it, as some brands will list 10 things but it is 80% 2-3 things for example). We eat it too so there is little waste unless we buy the Costco size tubs, which even with waste is still cheaper than the bags from Trader Joes (cheapest where I live as it is $2 vs. $3 at the other stores). I can get greens to last for up to 10 days if I keep them dry. This means washing and drying them, and keeping them in Tupperwares with paper towels, changed about every other day to keep humidity out. Although the stores mist them to keep them pretty, this shortens their fridge life. Then, I buy 1 other green on average (sometimes too). This will be the stuff not in spring mix (many spring mixes have endive), and typically higher in oxalic acid. Stuff like (dandelion, mustard, collard) greens, etc. The head of greens sadly we will end up throwing out more than Trevor eats, but it is still a good monetary deal for the amount we spend a week. This way I go through a lot of variety of greens for not a lot of waste and money. I take variety to mean over time, not all in one week. For you, you would then want to buy fruits which both the tort and you will eat. Yes, berries likely only last a few days.

Best wishes.

 

[Madkins007]

Fifth... for TEMPERATE water turtles, the temps are in the 80-85 range, but Red-foots are TROPICAL tortoises, aim for 85-90ish.

Slightly springy plastrons are normal- emphasis on 'springy'. It should not feel leathery or mushy.

Ca: P of 2:0 would be pure calcium.

Let's look at that diet. In my opinion, based on my limited keeping and research, it is not optimal. You've got lots of calories, mediocre fiber, so-so calcium, etc. going on.

You can use http://www.redfoots.com diet as a starter- high calcium foods with good balance and such. You'll notice, for example, that he chooses a much lower in protein cat chow and in fact does not offer protein to hatchlings under about 6 months old.

I prefer to tweak Terry's diet in a few simple ways.
- Days 1, 2, 4, and 5- greens and lettuces, with added grasses or hays. (Cut rabbit hay, crushed hay cubes or pellets, leaves from safe outdoor plants, etc.)
- Day 3- vegetables, mostly mushrooms, and 'veggies with seeds'- squash, bell peppers, eggplant, etc. with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 6- regular fruit, per Terry's list, with a pinch of calcium powder
- Day 7- once a month, I offer worms, bugs, pinkies, cooked chicken, or oily fish. The other days I offer a treat- a fancy fruit, ear of corn or other infrequent 'treats', etc.

You are also going to want to work on humidity, since it DOES affect hardness and development- try to get at least some part, especially the hide, to about 90%+.

Just wondering Mark...why did you "tweak Terry's diet"? Did you feel it was lacking in something? Just curious.

Looking at a wide range of diet offerings in the newer books and research, field studies, etc., I noticed that most of them involved a more fibrous diet that Terry uses. I also noticed that my torts droppings were usually dark green/brown and unformed, while many people were reporting healthy droppings that are greener and more 'grassy'.

Another thing is that the 'fruits' these guys eat so much of in the wild are more like figs and squash in nutrients than melons and the other wet, sweet, high calorie things we generally offer.

Finally, the amount of protein these torts eat and need is relatively low. I cut back on the frequency of meat and replaced it with variety. My use of whole, live meats is a personal option- but one that would be expensive in a larger herd.

 

[terryo]

Sounds good...and Mark, since you like to look things up and I'm way to lazy...busy....what kind of fruit would ...say a Brazilian Cherry Head find in the wild. Always curious about that. And...what kind of vegetation would they be eating in the part of Brazil that they come from? (I guess they would come from many different parts of Brazil) The greens that they eat would have to be low to the ground, I guess. How would we check that out? Thanks.

 

[Madkins007]

There is not as much field info on Cherryheads as we might want, but we know a lot about the torts from the Gran Chaco, which are also Southern variants.

These guys eat a lot of cacti- pads, fruits, and flowers, mostly of 'Opuntia' and 'Quiabentia' species (many tortoises found while eating these had spines piercing their mouths.). Lots of other red flowers, ferns, bromeliads, leaves, shoots, etc. Fruits include berries and 'sour oranges', A widely available fruit is a legume called 'pehen fruit' (Acacia aroma), which looks sort of like a bean pod.

Grasses, fungi, insects, carrion, bones, etc. round off the diet (Vinkes and Vetters, "South American Tortoises")

 

[Bryan]

There is not as much field info on Cherryheads as we might want, but we know a lot about the torts from the Gran Chaco, which are also Southern variants.

These guys eat a lot of cacti- pads, fruits, and flowers, mostly of 'Opuntia' and 'Quiabentia' species (many tortoises found while eating these had spines piercing their mouths.). Lots of other red flowers, ferns, bromeliads, leaves, shoots, etc. Fruits include berries and 'sour oranges', A widely available fruit is a legume called 'pehen fruit' (Acacia aroma), which looks sort of like a bean pod.

Grasses, fungi, insects, carrion, bones, etc. round off the diet (Vinkes and Vetters, "South American Tortoises")

Not to mention that since "Cherryheads" haven't really been observed in the wild, it's kind of a crap shoot. That said you are on the right path Mark as Gran Chaco's are more similar to them than Northern redfoots are.