Cross breeding?

[Raymo2477]

Is there any problems in breeding a Dalmatian and Eastern Hermann's tortise?
Either biologically or from a hobby perspective?
I also breed corn snakes and I know some in that community frown on intergrades.

Any thoughts or opinions on this are appreciated.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Most frown on the idea, although it appears that many Dalmation/Eastern Xs are out there (apparently, my Jennifer is one), due to many breeders/hobbyists not being able to tell the difference between the two subspecies (it's not as obvious as the difference between a Western and either of the other two).

There's a lot to be said for keeping the bloodlines as pure as possible.

My $.02 worth...

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Most frown on the idea, although it appears that many Dalmation/Eastern Xs are out there (apparently, my Jennifer is one), due to many breeders/hobbyists not being able to tell the difference between the two subspecies (it's not as obvious as the difference between a Western and either of the other two).

There's a lot to be said for keeping the bloodlines as pure as possible.

My $.02 worth...

Add my $.02 to that I completely agree with Terry.

 

[dmmj]

Personally I am a purist when it comes to breeding, but that is just me, but is a dalmatian and a hermanns different subspecies or just different color morphs?

 

[Tccarolina]

Personally I am a purist when it comes to breeding, but that is just me, but is a dalmatian and a hermanns different subspecies or just different color morphs?

Currently, they are different subspecies.

 

[GBtortoises]

The "problem" with interbreeding Dalmatians and Easterns is that there are few purebred Dalmatians in captivity in comparison to the more dominate Eastern race. By doing so, this will further dilute and inhibit the chances of true purebred Dalmatians in captivity. In most cases resulting hatchlings seem to exhibit more characteristics of the Eastern race than the Dalmatian race. If this hatchling is later mistaken as an adult Eastern and then bred with another adult Eastern the resulting hatchlings may exhibt characteristics of both, now further diluting the Eastern race also.
Having said that there are certainly Dalmatian/Eastern crosses out there everywhere because for many years Dalmatians were imported as Easterns because many people didn't know the difference (which is obvious by comparison) or in the case of many vendors, didn't care. Some textbook Dalmatians have even been mistaken by some for Western Hermann's! Most diehard Testudo keepers & breeders do recognize the Dalmatian subspecies and wish to preserve it, considering it a "bridge" subspecies between Easterns and Westerns.
The subspecies was actually first described in 1899 but only recently "re-accepted" by researchers.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

The "problem" with interbreeding Dalmatians and Easterns is that there are few purebred Dalmatians in captivity in comparison to the more dominate Eastern race. By doing so, this will further dilute and inhibit the chances of true purebred Dalmatians in captivity. In most cases resulting hatchlings seem to exhibit more characteristics of the Eastern race than the Dalmatian race. If this hatchling is later mistaken as an adult Eastern and then bred with another adult Eastern the resulting hatchlings may exhibt characteristics of both, now further diluting the Eastern race also.
Having said that there are certainly Dalmatian/Eastern crosses out there everywhere because for many years Dalmatians were imported as Easterns because many people didn't know the difference (which is obvious by comparison) or in the case of many vendors, didn't care. Some textbook Dalmatians have even been mistaken by some for Western Hermann's! Most diehard Testudo keepers & breeders do recognize the Dalmatian subspecies and wish to preserve it, considering it a "bridge" subspecies between Easterns and Westerns.
The subspecies was actually first described in 1899 but only recently "re-accepted" by researchers.

OK, a question, GB:

Having what appears to be Dalmation/Eastern "mutt" (I know the breeder and all his original stock is still w/ him, except his original male and they're all Easterns, so it's presumed that the deceased male was a Dalmation or himself a "mutt", or the mother had Dalmation in her...unfortunately, he's not sure which of his various females laid the egg that Jennifer hatched from), so would you recommend that I breed her to a male Dalmation, if I can find one, in the hope that some/all of her hatchlings will look Dalmation, even though there may be some Eastern looking offspring from time to time, as well?

Thanks for your thoughts on this matter.

 

[GBtortoises]

Not to offend Terry but of I had her and did not know for certain that she was either a true Dalmatian (or Eastern) I wouldn't breed her with either. I also have a Hermann's here that is a Dalmatian/Eastern cross, I know that because she came from a group that I purchased many years earlier that consisted of 3 textbook female Dalmatians and 1 definitely purebred male Eastern Hermann's. The former owner also did not either know or acknowledge any difference. No telling how many of those offspring are out there. I have no intention of ever breeding her. I would if I knew that the offspring were going to people that only ever planned to keep them as pets and not breed them, ever. Problem with that is I have no say in what other people do with their tortoises once they get them. I would not want to see her offspring bred with Dalmatians and further dilute and polute a very limited race in captivity. Although I doubt I ever would, if anything, I'd consider breeding mine with an Eastern male only because the number of Eastern already far outnumber Dalmatians in captivity and most likely always will. But for me anyway, that still can't justify making a further mess of things. I think what you are going to get is offspring that have all the primary traits of Easterns. That seems to be the prevailing outcome with captive cross breeding of the two so far. A purebred Dalmatian looks noticeably different from an Eastern right out of the egg. Actually, hatchling Dalmatians look much more like Westerns that Easterns.

I would love to see photos of the breeders Easterns. Not to prove anyone wrong or right, but for my own curiousity. No one really paid much attention to the Dalmatian subspecies until very recently. While they've been in captivity for some time, they have only been "re-accepted" since about 2005-2006. So consequently many people that have "Easterns", don't always, but that's what they were told when they purchased them and they had no reason no reason to believe otherwise. I myself so far have purchased 5 Dalmatians that were sold as Easterns.

I certainly cannot tell anyone what they should be doing with their animals, only offer an opinion and that's all I'm doing.

 

[Raymo2477]

I appreciate everyone's comments. I wish I had known about the Dalmatian possibilty before I got my pair of tortoises. I was 99% sure they weren't a Western and Eastern pair so I assumed they were both Easterns and potentially breedable. I doubt the seller realized he had a mixed pair.

That's the real problem people (other than the well educated members of this forum ) don't really know about testudo hermanni hercegovnes (sp?) and how to tell it from bottegri. There are some great diagrams on this site...I wish I had seen them before I bought my tortoise.

Now the decision will be which to keep and which to trade away so I can get a breedable pair.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Not to offend Terry but of I had her and did not know for certain that she was either a true Dalmatian (or Eastern) I wouldn't breed her with either. I also have a Hermann's here that is a Dalmatian/Eastern cross, I know that because she came from a group that I purchased many years earlier that consisted of 3 textbook female Dalmatians and 1 definitely purebred male Eastern Hermann's. The former owner also did not either know or acknowledge any difference. No telling how many of those offspring are out there. I have no intention of ever breeding her. I would if I knew that the offspring were going to people that only ever planned to keep them as pets and not breed them, ever. Problem with that is I have no say in what other people do with their tortoises once they get them. I would not want to see her offspring bred with Dalmatians and further dilute and polute a very limited race in captivity. Although I doubt I ever would, if anything, I'd consider breeding mine with an Eastern male only because the number of Eastern already far outnumber Dalmatians in captivity and most likely always will. But for me anyway, that still can't justify making a further mess of things. I think what you are going to get is offspring that have all the primary traits of Easterns. That seems to be the prevailing outcome with captive cross breeding of the two so far. A purebred Dalmatian looks noticeably different from an Eastern right out of the egg. Actually, hatchling Dalmatians look much more like Westerns that Easterns.

I would love to see photos of the breeders Easterns. Not to prove anyone wrong or right, but for my own curiousity. No one really paid much attention to the Dalmatian subspecies until very recently. While they've been in captivity for some time, they have only been "re-accepted" since about 2005-2006. So consequently many people that have "Easterns", don't always, but that's what they were told when they purchased them and they had no reason no reason to believe otherwise. I myself so far have purchased 5 Dalmatians that were sold as Easterns.

I certainly cannot tell anyone what they should be doing with their animals, only offer an opinion and that's all I'm doing.

No offense taken at all, GB...after all, I did ask for your thoughts on the matter.

My plans for any offspring from Jennifer was that I'd be very upfront about her mixed ancestry, and also the mixed ancestry of the offspring, as I've only one male, Ptolemy, and he's an Eastern.

Lately, I've considered getting a few Dalmations, including a male, moving Jennifer in w/ them, and carefully keepintg track of her hatchlings, so as to not sell any females, but keep them to further build up breeding stock.

OTOH, your point about trying to keep the bloodlines pure is certainly a valid one, and that no matter how up-front I intend to be about these mixed offspring, there's no way to know how honest the folks who get them may prove to be...and my vet has no idea if it would be possible to successfully neuter/spay a young tortoise, which would certainly fix the tortoise as being a "pet only" tort.

A bit of a dilemna!