Any Amazon Basin Yellowfoot Keepers Out There?

[Kapidolo Farms]

A. Taggert the guy who came to the zoo, was full of passion for his project, which focused more on cats, primates, and other mammals at the zoo. I can't say he did not care about the tortoises, but they were not a primary interest to him. At that time he was trying to create the NGO in Peru itself, but there were some legal issues frustrating that, so in the end he founded the NGO, that persists to today in Australia.

After his talk he was focused on the zoo's VP of animal affairs prospecting funding and organization logistis help. Talking about the tortoises that had been eaten subsequent to the photo did not inspire much conversation from him.

Later follow-up via email has not gotten any response.

Based on the idea that the tortouses are consumed for lent as fish, I imagine it is an annual accumulation. Then the question of how far did people carry them for the accumulation comes up, and I have no idea.

On this whole idea of giants in the Amazon basin, you have to keep in mind that a great deal of that large area is not suitable for terrestrial, non arboreal animals, it floods each year. So there are likely many localized populations with high mixing from one population to the next from smaller individuals able to persist in trees during floods, or giants that can float.

One conversation I had with a tamarin/marmoset expert, who also liked tortoises, suggested that their had been "unique" yellow foots in the Atlantic forest of Brazil, he had seen some in the 1970's.

But I saw no pictures nor do I recal any mention in the literature of unique yellowfoots there. If you look at the NGO's working in this area now, the talk about such a high degree of fragmentation and bushmeat exploitation, I doubt even a really good survey would turn up tortoises.

In the late 1990's a buddy working at the St. Louis zoo, who is obsesed with accuracy of information tried to sort out via the zoo's historical records some evidence about the appelation of those giants. He felt no strong conclusion could be made. They are very cool tortoises, and "dog" tame. Before digital cameras in my life, I have misplaced the images I took at that time.

Ron Tremper, the famous leopard gecko man, has a shell of one of two gianrs that had been owned by a couple in Fresno, way back when he curated the Fresno zoo herp building. That shell is maybe 24 inches long. It was sitting ontop of a full size refrigerator at CRAP when I saw it, and it extended out on both sides of the frig.

I don't think they are rare so much, as rarely get past local consumption. It's a hunter's thing to always get the biggest.

Will

---

On another note, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read here on TFO.

Will

 

[redsn8k]

Agree with that Will. I have learned a lot reading through this.

Could the existence of giants simply be like that of humans? We have the ability to produce giants as well. Just an uneducated guess coming from a newbie.

 

[Bryan]

A. Taggert the guy who came to the zoo, was full of passion for his project, which focused more on cats, primates, and other mammals at the zoo. I can't say he did not care about the tortoises, but they were not a primary interest to him. At that time he was trying to create the NGO in Peru itself, but there were some legal issues frustrating that, so in the end he founded the NGO, that persists to today in Australia.

After his talk he was focused on the zoo's VP of animal affairs prospecting funding and organization logistis help. Talking about the tortoises that had been eaten subsequent to the photo did not inspire much conversation from him.

Later follow-up via email has not gotten any response.

Very unfortunate but not surprising, herps often times draw the short stick when it comes to fauna.

Based on the idea that the tortouses are consumed for lent as fish, I imagine it is an annual accumulation. Then the question of how far did people carry them for the accumulation comes up, and I have no idea.

For sure, naturally for someone like me in the US I'd consider carrying an animal like that for a mile to be an extremely long distance. That said I'm sure that the natives there tie them to sticks and have two men carrying them to distribute the weight better and make it much easier to carry so we could be talking miles.

On this whole idea of giants in the Amazon basin, you have to keep in mind that a great deal of that large area is not suitable for terrestrial, non arboreal animals, it floods each year. So there are likely many localized populations with high mixing from one population to the next from smaller individuals able to persist in trees during floods, or giants that can float.

Interesting, this would also explain why there are the odd giant from populations where giants aren't very common. A giant animal breeds the largest animal in the local population and you possibly get heterosis in the offspring while they also show characteristics of both parents which in turn muddies the water even more in terms of classifying giants based on looks alone.

One conversation I had with a tamarin/marmoset expert, who also liked tortoises, suggested that their had been "unique" yellow foots in the Atlantic forest of Brazil, he had seen some in the 1970's.

Interesting, did he elaborate into what made then unique in his eyes?

But I saw no pictures nor do I recal any mention in the literature of unique yellowfoots there. If you look at the NGO's working in this area now, the talk about such a high degree of fragmentation and bushmeat exploitation, I doubt even a really good survey would turn up tortoises.

While I can't blame people looking to feed their families unless their government steps in and protects these animals and tries to determine if they are indeed unique we may never know.

In the late 1990's a buddy working at the St. Louis zoo, who is obsesed with accuracy of information tried to sort out via the zoo's historical records some evidence about the appelation of those giants. He felt no strong conclusion could be made. They are very cool tortoises, and "dog" tame. Before digital cameras in my life, I have misplaced the images I took at that time.

Ron Tremper, the famous leopard gecko man, has a shell of one of two gianrs that had been owned by a couple in Fresno, way back when he curated the Fresno zoo herp building. That shell is maybe 24 inches long. It was sitting ontop of a full size refrigerator at CRAP when I saw it, and it extended out on both sides of the frig.

Some massive animals for sure. I must say that is the coolest acronym I have ever seen.... CRAP

I don't think they are rare so much, as rarely get past local consumption. It's a hunter's thing to always get the biggest.

Will

That makes a lot of sense, a 50lb. animal could feed a lot of people.

---

On another note, this is one of the most interesting threads I've read here on TFO.

Will
[/quote]

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge of these animals with us Will it is both greatly appreciated and very educational for those of us that are trying to see if there is indeed a different subspecies or locale specific Yellowfoots. Your contributions have certainly added more than yourr fair share to this thread!

Agree with that Will. I have learned a lot reading through this.

Could the existence of giants simply be like that of humans? We have the ability to produce giants as well. Just an uneducated guess coming from a newbie.

It could well be some throwbacks or a health issue like gigantism in humans, however my issue with that is the number of animals that have been known to be quite large and some potential appearance differences. This leads me to believe that there are different races of yellows out there rightly or wrongly.

 

[tortadise]

Bryan. I wish it were true too of the different species,sub-species, types or whatever. I would love to see my Peruvians grow up to be massive. The issue is countries are labeled by society and civilization. Nature doesn't know or care whether or not its from one area, country or whatever its called by others. They live where they live because that's what they do best and how they adapted to live by. Amazon basin is over many countries but doesn't play a role in differences in Guyana or Suriname dendiculata. They are all found in very similar habitats that all receive annual flood and wet season highs. I just Dont know. I also do not see any similarities or scientific evidence done in numerous populations of dendiculatas range. Barges and Ramirez did a phylogenic study on the types of red-foots and while doing that. They also did not find anything concrete that justified that even a type could be diversified in the range of dendiculata specimens. Climate, food, and seasons are all different in that said range. But its hard to determine whether or not you can substantiate a sub-species or type of yellow foot. Radiata is known for being the oldest living species(at least documented as oldest) but that could of been from documentation and easy access to wild specimens. To find dendiculata in Brazil, Peru, or Equador takes quite a trek and can very dangerous. Perhaps and unfortunately these massive specimens are just very very old animals. Nigra and gigeantea take 40-50 years (males at least) to start being within range of being great breeders and successfully fertilizing and producing more offspring at those ages. That being said. Younger specimens still can produce. So my thoughts could be on the massive specimens or "amazon basin" yellow foots could just be very very old specimens and insufficient data or record of aged animals are non existent or validated documents. For now some serious funding and expeditions could prove that wrong. But the studies I have read dictate against any types or Sub species of dendiculata in any of the ranges they are naturally found in.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan. I wish it were true too of the different species,sub-species, types or whatever. I would love to see my Peruvians grow up to be massive. The issue is countries are labeled by society and civilization. Nature doesn't know or care whether or not its from one area, country or whatever its called by others. They live where they live because that's what they do best and how they adapted to live by. Amazon basin is over many countries but doesn't play a role in differences in Guyana or Suriname dendiculata. They are all found in very similar habitats that all receive annual flood and wet season highs. I just Dont know. I also do not see any similarities or scientific evidence done in numerous populations of dendiculatas range. Barges and Ramirez did a phylogenic study on the types of red-foots and while doing that. They also did not find anything concrete that justified that even a type could be diversified in the range of dendiculata specimens. Climate, food, and seasons are all different in that said range. But its hard to determine whether or not you can substantiate a sub-species or type of yellow foot. Radiata is known for being the oldest living species(at least documented as oldest) but that could of been from documentation and easy access to wild specimens. To find dendiculata in Brazil, Peru, or Equador takes quite a trek and can very dangerous. Perhaps and unfortunately these massive specimens are just very very old animals. Nigra and gigeantea take 40-50 years (males at least) to start being within range of being great breeders and successfully fertilizing and producing more offspring at those ages. That being said. Younger specimens still can produce. So my thoughts could be on the massive specimens or "amazon basin" yellow foots could just be very very old specimens and insufficient data or record of aged animals are non existent or validated documents. For now some serious funding and expeditions could prove that wrong. But the studies I have read dictate against any types or Sub species of dendiculata in any of the ranges they are naturally found in.

Thanks for the post, however if age is the primary deciding factor in their size, then again I have to ask, why don't we see 100lb. Carbonaria? I believe that they share a common ancestor (I lost my copy of South American Tortoises and haven't replaced it yet so I maybe wrong) so why is it that we see such a massive range of size in Denticulata and not Carbonaria or other species for that matter? Is it simply because the largest animals are shielded from humans? And if so Will has knowledge of 50+ 65+lb. animals being collected so obviously they can't be that out of reach of humans. I think that it's more than fair to say that if a search was done for 50+lb. Denticulata in Peru and a search for 50+lb. Carbonaria was done in Paraguay that the Peru search would end quicker and that you may get a ratio as high as 100:1 in favor of the Denticulata, perhaps even higher as you rarely hear of Carbonaria at that size.

 

[EricIvins]

You are comparing apples to oranges....

Obviously Denticulata is a bigger Tortoise than a Redfoot. In some parts of their ranges the two are comparable in size, others not so much. Comparing a Redfoot to a Yellowfoot in size is like comparing a Gopher Tortoise to a Burmese Black. Having a common ancestor makes no difference. Chaco Tortoises have a common ancestor with Galops....Why are they not the same size?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

The tamarin/marmoset guy was for the most part repeating something he heard said, and joining in on a conversation. He had seen them, and was told they are different than the ones on the inland side of the mountains.

That was all during a focused few weeks of interest and inquiry, many years ago.

When I finally land on some land, I'll seek and buy some. Until then for me it is fun reminiscing about a job at a zoo.

Eric has a good point, apples and oranges. The average yelIowfoot is bigger and lives under a more closed canopy, while the average redfoot lives in a more open canopy/savanna type habitat. Those very attributes, exploiting different elements of a huge landscape, having different behaviors and diets etc. contributes to speciation from that common ancestor.

That does not mean an occasional lapse in an individual won't occur, but "species" no mater if you follow the BSC or the PSC is the composite of many individuals/populations/subspecies.

Similar in several species of tortoise with full or fragmented shared habitat on the macro scale. This is an example from a completely different landscape. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-59508.html

Will

---

The pair of yellows that I've seen here is supposedly 60ish years old and they weren't all that big at all, yet the Amazon Basin YF that my friend grew up to at least 50lbs. was about 20 years old. I suppose it could be a throwback gene of some sort, but I am of the belief that this is at least a subspecies. This would be the equivalent of a RES that's 21" long, how often have you seen that? Maybe they are late to mature and because of their size in the wild they are highly prized for food and they don't get to reproduce much so it's a very scarce animal basically on the verge of a collapse? That would make more sense to me than some of these other theories and it would mesh with what Eric is saying in that he has seen large animals from throughout their range. The sheer size difference just does not compute for me especially when I've seen older animals who were far from huge and a fairly young one that was a mini tank and was closer to a small Sulcata's size than a YF's.

A subspecies from throughout the range does not work, the one does not go with the other. Eric's argument agrees with large size to be an event of time, place, and individual/genetics. Think about the work of J. Congren with blandings - bigger individuals lay more larger eggs with subsequent hatchlings that grow bigger faster, with a higher survival rate. But their is a bottle neck for those females to get that big in the first place, they had to grow bigger over time, in areas with a long history (turtle lifetime) of a consistent good individual habitat. The younger smaller females also lay eggs and many of them work out too. So in a way it is a complex of strategies for the "species" to persist due to the varying ways each individual contributes over it life.

Another very cryptic way this has been found is with three stripe mud turtles. In one population some females are early spring agg layers, some fall egg layers, and some mid year egg layers, some of those eggs have a diapause, some have hatchling that winter over in the egg/nest, and some hatch out dig out and get a meal or two in before winter. Each female followed 'her' pattern from one year to the next. One species, one population, three strategies for reproduction.

With yellowfoots some individuals are the 'spearpoint' of everything right for the species by our current discussion value for the big ones. They are mingled in with the others.

But situational selection may not always value those big ones. Yellowfoots live in a very dynamic macro habitat. Many things drive many 'spearpoints' of adaptation, in a sense each individual has a custom way to succeed within the confines of the tools (genes) and environment (time and space). The jumble of alleles for any trait may be of no "spearpoint" value for many generations, even though they persist and are expressed every generation, throughout the population. But it all does come together for some individuals.

The study for the blandings and three stripe are hard core field studies, my rant about this being how yellowfoot giants are distributed throughout the range is conjecture. But conjecture that follows a pattern seen elsewhere with chelonians.

Will

 

[Bryan]

You are comparing apples to oranges....

Obviously Denticulata is a bigger Tortoise than a Redfoot. In some parts of their ranges the two are comparable in size, others not so much. Comparing a Redfoot to a Yellowfoot in size is like comparing a Gopher Tortoise to a Burmese Black. Having a common ancestor makes no difference. Chaco Tortoises have a common ancestor with Galops....Why are they not the same size?

How many other species of Chelonians have such a wide range of adult size? For the most part I am only familiar with Carbonaria so that is why I am using them as the basis of the comparison. They both overlap in range at times too unlike Chaco's and Galapagos'.

The tamarin/marmoset guy was for the most part repeating something he heard said, and joining in on a conversation. He had seen them, and was told they are different than the ones on the inland side of the mountains.

That was all during a focused few weeks of interest and inquiry, many years ago.

When I finally land on some land, I'll seek and buy some. Until then for me it is fun reminiscing about a job at a zoo.

Eric has a good point, apples and oranges. The average yelIowfoot is bigger and lives under a more closed canopy, while the average redfoot lives in a more open canopy/savanna type habitat. Those very attributes, exploiting different elements of a huge landscape, having different behaviors and diets etc. contributes to speciation from that common ancestor.

That does not mean an occasional lapse in an individual won't occur, but "species" no mater if you follow the BSC or the PSC is the composite of many individuals/populations/subspecies.

Similar in several species of tortoise with full or fragmented shared habitat on the macro scale. This is an example from a completely different landscape. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-59508.html

Will

---

The pair of yellows that I've seen here is supposedly 60ish years old and they weren't all that big at all, yet the Amazon Basin YF that my friend grew up to at least 50lbs. was about 20 years old. I suppose it could be a throwback gene of some sort, but I am of the belief that this is at least a subspecies. This would be the equivalent of a RES that's 21" long, how often have you seen that? Maybe they are late to mature and because of their size in the wild they are highly prized for food and they don't get to reproduce much so it's a very scarce animal basically on the verge of a collapse? That would make more sense to me than some of these other theories and it would mesh with what Eric is saying in that he has seen large animals from throughout their range. The sheer size difference just does not compute for me especially when I've seen older animals who were far from huge and a fairly young one that was a mini tank and was closer to a small Sulcata's size than a YF's.

A subspecies from throughout the range does not work, the one does not go with the other. Eric's argument agrees with large size to be an event of time, place, and individual/genetics. Think about the work of J. Congren with blandings - bigger individuals lay more larger eggs with subsequent hatchlings that grow bigger faster, with a higher survival rate. But their is a bottle neck for those females to get that big in the first place, they had to grow bigger over time, in areas with a long history (turtle lifetime) of a consistent good individual habitat. The younger smaller females also lay eggs and many of them work out too. So in a way it is a complex of strategies for the "species" to persist due to the varying ways each individual contributes over it life.

Another very cryptic way this has been found is with three stripe mud turtles. In one population some females are early spring agg layers, some fall egg layers, and some mid year egg layers, some of those eggs have a diapause, some have hatchling that winter over in the egg/nest, and some hatch out dig out and get a meal or two in before winter. Each female followed 'her' pattern from one year to the next. One species, one population, three strategies for reproduction.

With yellowfoots some individuals are the 'spearpoint' of everything right for the species by our current discussion value for the big ones. They are mingled in with the others.

But situational selection may not always value those big ones. Yellowfoots live in a very dynamic macro habitat. Many things drive many 'spearpoints' of adaptation, in a sense each individual has a custom way to succeed within the confines of the tools (genes) and environment (time and space). The jumble of alleles for any trait may be of no "spearpoint" value for many generations, even though they persist and are expressed every generation, throughout the population. But it all does come together for some individuals.

The study for the blandings and three stripe are hard core field studies, my rant about this being how yellowfoot giants are distributed throughout the range is conjecture. But conjecture that follows a pattern seen elsewhere with chelonians.

Will

---

Thanks for the informative post, it would be interesting to see what kind of a ratio of larger animals come from specific populations and to see what maybe the common environmental denominators in the largest populations. I maybe mistaken but in what Eric was saying, he rarely sees these massive animals anymore and that he has seen some in a number of populations. Couldn't this be due to either throwbacks or a solitary individual migrating to the area by the methods that you mentioned earlier and blending its genetics with the local population with minimal success? Has there been any DNA analysis of the St. Louis Zoo animals in relation to average sized animals?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

How many other species? Sulcata adults on the small side under 100 pounds, on the large side over 200 for males, 40 pounds to about 125 for females. Leopards from about 15 to 20 pounds to over 100 pounds. The range of variation is great amoung many chelonians.

Will

 

[Bryan]

How many other species? Sulcata adults on the small side under 100 pounds, on the large side over 200 for males, 40 pounds to about 125 for females. Leopards from about 15 to 20 pounds to over 100 pounds. The range of variation is great amoung many chelonians.

Will

Thanks Will, are there Paradalis Babcocki that get that large or just Paradalis Paradalis? I've heard that the Sudanese Sulcata's get the largest, is there talk at all of considering them a subspecies or are they just deemed to be a large population of Sulcata's by most?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Re: RE: Any Amazon Basin Yellowfoot Keepers Out There?

[/quote]

Thanks Will, are there Paradalis Babcocki that get that large or just Paradalis Paradalis? I've heard that the Sudanese Sulcata's get the largest, is there talk at all of considering them a subspecies or are they just deemed to be a large population of Sulcata's by most?
[/quote]

Talk? I don't have occasion to speak with the scientists who are building tortoise phylogenies. It is my understanding that sulcatas have been moved around often by people who live in the range, as gifts etc. I don't believe there could be a valid subspecies described.

In the forum section for leopards you will see images of leopards from Ethiopia that exceed the largest individuals recorded from southern South Africa.

I have seen a few sulcata that exceed 200 pounds, but did not know their origen. The largest was at ZooMeds office in SLO, about 20 yesrs ago.

There is an excellent book called "the crying tortoise" that tells a rather full story about sulcatas. I understand an updated version is in the works, that earlier version is not so easy to find.

I do not know of an English book that relates as good a story about leopards.

But this thread is about yellow foots, I hope a mod does not fool with it for my digression to answer your questions.

Will

 

[Bryan]

Thanks Will, it did go a little OT but only because I was asking for other examples of Torts with such extreme variation in adult size. Getting it back on topic, does anyone have records of how much the Yellowfoots at the St. Louis Zoo have grown since being in captivity?

 

[AustinASU]

Thanks Will, are there Paradalis Babcocki that get that large or just Paradalis Paradalis? I've heard that the Sudanese Sulcata's get the largest, is there talk at all of considering them a subspecies or are they just deemed to be a large population of Sulcata's by most?
[/quote]

Talk? I don't have occasion to speak with the scientists who are building tortoise phylogenies. It is my understanding that sulcatas have been moved around often by people who live in the range, as gifts etc. I don't believe there could be a valid subspecies described.

In the forum section for leopards you will see images of leopards from Ethiopia that exceed the largest individuals recorded from southern South Africa.

I have seen a few sulcata that exceed 200 pounds, but did not know their origen. The largest was at ZooMeds office in SLO, about 20 yesrs ago.

There is an excellent book called "the crying tortoise" that tells a rather full story about sulcatas. I understand an updated version is in the works, that earlier version is not so easy to find.

I do not know of an English book that relates as good a story about leopards.

But this thread is about yellow foots, I hope a mod does not fool with it for my digression to answer your questions.

Will
[/quote]

They pardalis babcocki strain from Ethiopia are the biggest of all leopard tortoises. But they are extremely fragile from what I've heard and require more humidity than a normal Leo.

 

[cdmay]

You are comparing apples to oranges....

Obviously Denticulata is a bigger Tortoise than a Redfoot. In some parts of their ranges the two are comparable in size, others not so much. Comparing a Redfoot to a Yellowfoot in size is like comparing a Gopher Tortoise to a Burmese Black. Having a common ancestor makes no difference. Chaco Tortoises have a common ancestor with Galops....Why are they not the same size?

Actually, it's not comparing apples to oranges. They are sister species that in several parts of their range share habitat. In many places they are very similar in habits, feeding preferences and behavior. It is perfectly legitimate to include carbonaria in a discussion of denticulata and this has been done in countless published papers and books already.

Making a comparison of one species with another for the sake of discussion is a common practice found throughout scientific literature.

 

[EricIvins]

You are comparing apples to oranges....

Obviously Denticulata is a bigger Tortoise than a Redfoot. In some parts of their ranges the two are comparable in size, others not so much. Comparing a Redfoot to a Yellowfoot in size is like comparing a Gopher Tortoise to a Burmese Black. Having a common ancestor makes no difference. Chaco Tortoises have a common ancestor with Galops....Why are they not the same size?

Actually, it's not comparing apples to oranges. They are sister species that in several parts of their range share habitat. In many places they are very similar in habits, feeding preferences and behavior. It is perfectly legitimate to include carbonaria in a discussion of denticulata and this has been done in countless published papers and books already.

Making a comparison of one species with another for the sake of discussion is a common practice found throughout scientific literature.

Not in this instance. Comparing size of two different Tortoise species whether they are distantly related or not serves no purpose other than to convolute the conversation. The two may share some tendencies, but they are distinct enough to warrant the distinction. Otherwise we would see 25"-30" Redfoots the same way we see large Yellowfoots.....

 

[cdmay]

You are comparing apples to oranges....

Obviously Denticulata is a bigger Tortoise than a Redfoot. In some parts of their ranges the two are comparable in size, others not so much. Comparing a Redfoot to a Yellowfoot in size is like comparing a Gopher Tortoise to a Burmese Black. Having a common ancestor makes no difference. Chaco Tortoises have a common ancestor with Galops....Why are they not the same size?

Actually, it's not comparing apples to oranges. They are sister species that in several parts of their range share habitat. In many places they are very similar in habits, feeding preferences and behavior. It is perfectly legitimate to include carbonaria in a discussion of denticulata and this has been done in countless published papers and books already.

Making a comparison of one species with another for the sake of discussion is a common practice found throughout scientific literature.

Not in this instance. Comparing size of two different Tortoise species whether they are distantly related or not serves no purpose other than to convolute the conversation. The two may share some tendencies, but they are distinct enough to warrant the distinction. Otherwise we would see 25"-30" Redfoots the same way we see large Yellowfoots.....

Yeah, we get that. But the point I was making is that while not quite as extreme as in the case of yellow foots, there are unusually large, as well as unusually small, individual red footed tortoises within given populations too. An 18 inch Suriname red foot is the equivalent of a 25 inch yellow foot. The reason why both occur randomly might be related.

 

[tortadise]

Here are my guys. They came from a Farm in Peru. Pretty neat animals. Not sure if they will be monsters or not. But Id like to think they will. I do notice different shapes, and colors apart from the suriname/guyana yellows I have. Time will tell. But I am very skeptical as they are 5 years old already and not massive. I would presume if genetic or known ABYFs were a true type they would grow exceptionally larger quicker, like in relation to size of a Sulcata, Galap, or Aldabra. I think more research needs to be done for sure.

Well here is my 2 animals.




Age of the Guyana animal is unknown in this pic. I have seen one of the Peruvians flash so I know I have one male. The other looks identical to the male, but the tail is a hair smaller. Hoping for a pair but I think they are both males.

 

[Madkins007]

Kelly- from what I have seen, that dark plastron pattern is pretty typical of a 'southern type' red-footed- Gran Chaco, Brazil, etc. so it would seem that you have decent odds of big ones.