wrijin
New Member
To the wonderful folks here at Tortoise Forum,
I have two adult Russian tortoises, which I have taken care of for roughly 15-17 years. One (Piggy, male) was adopted from a friend of a family member. The second (Pokey, female) was purchased from a local pet store a few years later.
These two tortoises are at least 20 years of age, but could be far older. I simply don’t have the records to confirm.
Piggy and Pokey have lived outdoors year-round for nearly two decades. They have always been kept in a large outdoor space, fully enclosed with wire, including a covered area for rainy weather, and a large open space with a lot of vegetation.
Right now, the outdoor setup is a lot less than ideal, at about 3’x7.5’ per tortoise, with them separated from one another. Previously they were kept together in one enclosure which was more like 9’x9’ or something like that, but I had to move them to a different property, as my dad sold his house. Anyway, just some details on their care. California climate.
Despite a fully enclosed outdoor enclosure, a rat was able to enter through a small gap in the wire on the lid of the enclosure during this last year’s brumation (which they do naturally outdoors and have done for nearly two decades successfully) and chewed on Piggy’s leg very intensely. I could not tell how old the wound was, or see the wound clearly due to the large amount of substrate inside it (dirt/sand). As an aside, yes, eventually I would like to insert a new soil mix so that the sand concentration outdoors is reduced or removed entirely, but that’s outside of the scope of this post right now.
Piggy woke up from brumation around March 9th, and I noticed his injury when I picked him up for post-brumation inspection on March 10th. I called the veterinary clinic on that day and made the earliest appointment for March 11th.
On 3/11, I took Piggy to the local exotic pet vet, and the wound was cleaned. We did an x-ray to determine the level of bone exposure, and the vet recommended an amputation as the most effective and safe way to treat Piggy’s injury. I discussed with a local hobbyist who has kept reptiles for several decades, discussed with a family member who was a marine biologist and dentist, and did some research online, including this forum. After careful consideration, and after looking at the x-ray images alongside my vet, I decided to move forward with the amputation, so that Piggy would have a clean wound that could heal with reduced chance of infection.
Again, this was the recommendation of my vet as well. She stated that since the bone was exposed, the injury was unlikely to ever be able to heal in such a way that new tissue would cover the bone, and that this would cause necrosis.
So, Piggy had his amputation under anesthesia on March 13th. He was given a prescription of piperacillin tazobactam as an injection, at 0.13ml every 48 hours for 14 days, under the skin. This started on 3/11 and continued after his operation on 3/13. He was also given a pain medication for 5 days, once daily, of 0.09ml hydromorphone, following the amputation. This was also under the skin, in the front half of the body, which I successfully administered.
I took Piggy back to the vet on April 3rd, three (3) weeks after his surgery, for a check-up. His gauze fell off of the surgery site naturally a few days before, on April 1st. At the vet visit, the vet seemed confused by what had happened, and said that his tissue looks dead and possibly infected. She removed the sutures and did a debridement, and stated that she was conservative with the initial amputation, but believes that one of two things occurred: 1) she simply was too conservative, and the bone higher up was already necrotic; or 2) something simply happened after the operation and he got an infection.
The vet stated that she will need to do a new amputation higher up on the leg, and this is currently scheduled for April 18th. Piggy was given a new 14 day of the same antibiotics he had before, the “piptaz,” as well as a new antibiotic called amikacin (250mg/ml 2ml bottle) which is another injectable, which requires dilution with sterile water. Piggy was also given a tube of Silver Sulfadiazine Cream, USP 1%, for application on his infected/exposed tissue, once per day.
Basically, I am just extremely frustrated. It was already a debate on whether to perform the amputation or see if there was some way for the injury to heal on its own, even if that would have been extremely lengthy and possibly open him up to severe infection, but frankly to me it seems like his condition is worse now than it was in the first place.
I’m not concerned about him having less leg stump leftover, as actually I think it won’t affect his tripod mobility at all. Right now he is a pretty happy tortoise despite all of the horrible pain he has had to endure. He is eating ravenously and moving around his temporary indoor sterile Rubbermaid with paper lining set-up quite well, but I would really love to see what opinions folks have here at this stage.
With the research I had done on rat attacks, healing traumas in chelonians, and the good outcomes for 3-legged tortoises, and the confidence of my vet’s recommendation that the amputation was necessary, that’s the decision that was made and we can’t change it now. So, I will kindly ask that if you would not have performed the amputation in the first place, please refrain from attacking me for this decision.
I am more interested in whether you would immediately try to seek out another veterinary clinic for follow-up, or if you would recommend moving forward with this secondary amputation at the same clinic.
The leg is gone - I just want it to be clean and non-infected so that he can move forward and live for many more years.
I also hope this story can cement what most of you already know, in that even in a fully enclosed outdoor environment, a rat can still find even the most minor flaw in your design, and can cause a life threatening injury to your loved tortoise even after 15+ years of outdoor living without any injury. Please never stop monitoring your enclosures, as this is the most tragic thing that has ever happened to Piggy, and as much as I hate to say it, it could have been prevented if my enclosure had been built to be even more secure. I believe the gap the rat/mouse must have entered from was a little bit like the size of a half-dollar, so a bit larger than a quarter, under one side of the enclosure’s lid.
Anyway, several pictures are posted of Piggy’s progress, from initial injury to cleaned wound, amputation with gauze, and finally his current state with open wound.
Please let me know if you have thoughts or experience with similar situations.
At this point, this is really life for death for Piggy, who is one of my best friends. I’m very heartbroken, and I want the best possible outcome.
My primary concern is that if the veterinarian does this follow-up procedure to cut further up, if the site then becomes infected again, what will we do at that stage? There won’t be anywhere further to cut. Again, in terms of mobility and keeping more of his leg, I don’t think that matters. Frankly, I’m not sure why the vet decided to be “conservative” with the amputation in the first place. Maybe so that if this type of situation happened, she would have a second chance with a second cut.
It just really seems to me that his status now is worse off than it was before, and that is very concerning to me. Maybe I am overreacting, and you all would think that this second amputation will likely lead him to a good path toward recovery. Unfortunately, we can’t go back in time and avoid the amputation in the first place, nor change how the vet decided to perform it.
I will also note that the clinic has two vets, and for his follow-up procedure, I have been informed that the vet who is older, and more experienced, and who owns the clinic, will be performing his surgery. Now, the clinic didn’t say why the other vet will do the surgery, I’m just noting that those are extra details.
Thank you very much for your time.
I have two adult Russian tortoises, which I have taken care of for roughly 15-17 years. One (Piggy, male) was adopted from a friend of a family member. The second (Pokey, female) was purchased from a local pet store a few years later.
These two tortoises are at least 20 years of age, but could be far older. I simply don’t have the records to confirm.
Piggy and Pokey have lived outdoors year-round for nearly two decades. They have always been kept in a large outdoor space, fully enclosed with wire, including a covered area for rainy weather, and a large open space with a lot of vegetation.
Right now, the outdoor setup is a lot less than ideal, at about 3’x7.5’ per tortoise, with them separated from one another. Previously they were kept together in one enclosure which was more like 9’x9’ or something like that, but I had to move them to a different property, as my dad sold his house. Anyway, just some details on their care. California climate.
Despite a fully enclosed outdoor enclosure, a rat was able to enter through a small gap in the wire on the lid of the enclosure during this last year’s brumation (which they do naturally outdoors and have done for nearly two decades successfully) and chewed on Piggy’s leg very intensely. I could not tell how old the wound was, or see the wound clearly due to the large amount of substrate inside it (dirt/sand). As an aside, yes, eventually I would like to insert a new soil mix so that the sand concentration outdoors is reduced or removed entirely, but that’s outside of the scope of this post right now.
Piggy woke up from brumation around March 9th, and I noticed his injury when I picked him up for post-brumation inspection on March 10th. I called the veterinary clinic on that day and made the earliest appointment for March 11th.
On 3/11, I took Piggy to the local exotic pet vet, and the wound was cleaned. We did an x-ray to determine the level of bone exposure, and the vet recommended an amputation as the most effective and safe way to treat Piggy’s injury. I discussed with a local hobbyist who has kept reptiles for several decades, discussed with a family member who was a marine biologist and dentist, and did some research online, including this forum. After careful consideration, and after looking at the x-ray images alongside my vet, I decided to move forward with the amputation, so that Piggy would have a clean wound that could heal with reduced chance of infection.
Again, this was the recommendation of my vet as well. She stated that since the bone was exposed, the injury was unlikely to ever be able to heal in such a way that new tissue would cover the bone, and that this would cause necrosis.
So, Piggy had his amputation under anesthesia on March 13th. He was given a prescription of piperacillin tazobactam as an injection, at 0.13ml every 48 hours for 14 days, under the skin. This started on 3/11 and continued after his operation on 3/13. He was also given a pain medication for 5 days, once daily, of 0.09ml hydromorphone, following the amputation. This was also under the skin, in the front half of the body, which I successfully administered.
I took Piggy back to the vet on April 3rd, three (3) weeks after his surgery, for a check-up. His gauze fell off of the surgery site naturally a few days before, on April 1st. At the vet visit, the vet seemed confused by what had happened, and said that his tissue looks dead and possibly infected. She removed the sutures and did a debridement, and stated that she was conservative with the initial amputation, but believes that one of two things occurred: 1) she simply was too conservative, and the bone higher up was already necrotic; or 2) something simply happened after the operation and he got an infection.
The vet stated that she will need to do a new amputation higher up on the leg, and this is currently scheduled for April 18th. Piggy was given a new 14 day of the same antibiotics he had before, the “piptaz,” as well as a new antibiotic called amikacin (250mg/ml 2ml bottle) which is another injectable, which requires dilution with sterile water. Piggy was also given a tube of Silver Sulfadiazine Cream, USP 1%, for application on his infected/exposed tissue, once per day.
Basically, I am just extremely frustrated. It was already a debate on whether to perform the amputation or see if there was some way for the injury to heal on its own, even if that would have been extremely lengthy and possibly open him up to severe infection, but frankly to me it seems like his condition is worse now than it was in the first place.
I’m not concerned about him having less leg stump leftover, as actually I think it won’t affect his tripod mobility at all. Right now he is a pretty happy tortoise despite all of the horrible pain he has had to endure. He is eating ravenously and moving around his temporary indoor sterile Rubbermaid with paper lining set-up quite well, but I would really love to see what opinions folks have here at this stage.
With the research I had done on rat attacks, healing traumas in chelonians, and the good outcomes for 3-legged tortoises, and the confidence of my vet’s recommendation that the amputation was necessary, that’s the decision that was made and we can’t change it now. So, I will kindly ask that if you would not have performed the amputation in the first place, please refrain from attacking me for this decision.
I am more interested in whether you would immediately try to seek out another veterinary clinic for follow-up, or if you would recommend moving forward with this secondary amputation at the same clinic.
The leg is gone - I just want it to be clean and non-infected so that he can move forward and live for many more years.
I also hope this story can cement what most of you already know, in that even in a fully enclosed outdoor environment, a rat can still find even the most minor flaw in your design, and can cause a life threatening injury to your loved tortoise even after 15+ years of outdoor living without any injury. Please never stop monitoring your enclosures, as this is the most tragic thing that has ever happened to Piggy, and as much as I hate to say it, it could have been prevented if my enclosure had been built to be even more secure. I believe the gap the rat/mouse must have entered from was a little bit like the size of a half-dollar, so a bit larger than a quarter, under one side of the enclosure’s lid.
Anyway, several pictures are posted of Piggy’s progress, from initial injury to cleaned wound, amputation with gauze, and finally his current state with open wound.
Please let me know if you have thoughts or experience with similar situations.
At this point, this is really life for death for Piggy, who is one of my best friends. I’m very heartbroken, and I want the best possible outcome.
My primary concern is that if the veterinarian does this follow-up procedure to cut further up, if the site then becomes infected again, what will we do at that stage? There won’t be anywhere further to cut. Again, in terms of mobility and keeping more of his leg, I don’t think that matters. Frankly, I’m not sure why the vet decided to be “conservative” with the amputation in the first place. Maybe so that if this type of situation happened, she would have a second chance with a second cut.
It just really seems to me that his status now is worse off than it was before, and that is very concerning to me. Maybe I am overreacting, and you all would think that this second amputation will likely lead him to a good path toward recovery. Unfortunately, we can’t go back in time and avoid the amputation in the first place, nor change how the vet decided to perform it.
I will also note that the clinic has two vets, and for his follow-up procedure, I have been informed that the vet who is older, and more experienced, and who owns the clinic, will be performing his surgery. Now, the clinic didn’t say why the other vet will do the surgery, I’m just noting that those are extra details.
Thank you very much for your time.
