Would you spend $5000 on a Galapagos tortoise hatchling?

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

I love the Galapagos and if I won Powerball it might be a consideration, if, and only if, I knew what I was getting into and provide the exactly right care with my millions I won. (Fingers crossed here).

Remember this post?
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-69512.html

That is unacceptable.

They are too precious to not do right by them.

Had no idea there were 10 (!) subspecies and the different shell types. Wow.

No wonder Lonesome George left us without leaving us lil LGs.

RIP Lonesome George

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.

I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....

Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......

As you can read, many of us mere "pet" owners would love to have a Galop, were it feasible.

 

[tortadise]

Goiters are pretty typical in the giant tortoises. Little added iodine sprinkled on the food prevents it. Good diet and exercise is the best way to prevent typical medical issues. Unfortunately a lot of zoos have so many animals there husbandry director(food and enclosure protocols) are limited to wide diets, for all the animals. Cost outweighs care in many institutions not all though.

 

[Bryan]

I am not going to pretend to know about Galapagos tortoises like many of you do, however hybridization is something that I am very familiar with. Sometimes when you take different populations of animals and breed them you can get sterile offspring, you can get very lopsided male or female offspring, you can make it easier for genetic barriers to be broken down due to animals now being more receptive to breeding with either parent species, etc. Just because science as we know it has not classified Redfoots into different subspecies or perhaps even species altogether it does not mean that we should just turn a blind eye to all of the differences that these animals have. I believe that Amazon Basin Yellowfoots aren't classified as different than regular Yellowfoots, yet anyone that sees the sheer size of the adults of both of these animals would know that their is a vast difference between them. I have seen a lot smaller differences in other animals specifically fish that classifies animals as being a different species or sub species. IMO we should look to keep stocks pure so that in time if/when they are determined to be distinct that they will still be intact instead of a hodge podge like the Galapagos tortoises are reported to be.

As for if I'd buy them for $5K? Surely not if they are potentially sterile and surely not unless I get all of a huge grocery stores left over produce! I could only imagine what a 500lb. Galapagos tortoise could eat in a day!

---

I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.

I think that anyone with the means to acquire a Galop should. Point blank. Same goes for an Aldabra, Radiated, or any other Tortoise they have not experienced.....

Seriously though - Who cares? Would I spend stupid money on a Galop? Yes I would. Do I have plans on spending stupid money on a Galop? Yes I do. I don't get why a question like this would be posed to a forum who's primary base is "Pet" owners who would never think to own a Galop in the first place. I'm surprised no one has posted the typical "I thought they were Illegal to keep" post yet......

I've come across people that do a lot dumber things in life than that TBH, they have the $ to burn and more often than not do just that.

---

Knowing the literal handful of people that are actually producing Galops in the private sector, no, nobody is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on impulse. That is the truth. These are Tortoises, not fancy hood ornaments.....

---

I beg to differ, but I guess you've just run into less super rich idiots than I have. That said I'm sure that if these beautiful creatures are as hard to reproduce as it sounds the breeders could pretty well pick and choose who they go to and I'm sure that they'd rather their hatchlings grow into amazing adults while being kept in a great environment instead of being treated like yesterday's toy.

 

[cdmay]

This was pretty lame too Carl ....

"I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands.
Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?" "

Lame? I thought that it was a good point.
And funny too.

EricIvins Wrote: I would think "anyone" who wants a hatchling Galop knows what they are getting into. No one is going to buy a $5000 Tortoise on a whim. Those that do know the state of Galops in captivity.


Eric, I see your point and would have agreed with you up until last year. Then I saw a couple of adult galaps owned by a well known and experienced keeper that were is such poor shape that they both died. The vet caring for them said that they had been maintained in very substandard conditions and had developed festering sores all over their legs from rubbing against fiberglass. According to the vet, (the late Greg Flemming) the owner was simply lazy and the cost of the tortoises meant little as he had plenty of money. Although he had the space and the means to keep and even breed his tortoises, he didn't bother.
Also, the tortoise guy down in Homestead with lots of money had several galaps years ago. But they all developed huge goiters on their necks from him feeding them loads of cabbage and other cheap produce. I think they all died--just from lousy care.
As for this being a place mostly for 'Pet owners' that's probably true. But then didn't all keepers--including Galapagos tortoise breeders--start off that way?

 

[Baoh]

Did something happen to Littlefoot?

 

[Yvonne G]

Baoh: He sold Little Foot quite a while ago when he had to go to the east coast for the military.

 

[Baoh]

Ah. Good to know. Littlefoot was an awesome tank of an animal.

Thanks for the information, Yvonne.

 

[N2TORTS]

This was pretty lame too Carl ....

"I'd like to see you go down the the CDRC and tell Linda Cayot and the other staff members (while you're at it tell Peter Pritchard, Anders Rhodin and others) what a waste of time it is, and what buffoons they all are for trying to preserve those stupid unique populations of tortoises on those islands.
Same goes for the captive population of red-footed tortoises you mentioned. Lets just mix 'em all together! As Hillary Clinton would say, "What difference does it make?" "

Lame? I thought that it was a good point.
And funny too.

Carl ….What I ment from the Redfoot statement ( which is even less studied then the galaps, and there is no island hoping with miles of water in-between) is at what point or shall I say “local” to we call one species another? Now I fully understand there are phenotypes’ to certain “local” and in the redfoot world most of that is differences in coloring. Although with the giant Reds as well as the Giant Yellowfoots …we see size difference within species but could that be more likely scenario because of the actions like mentioned above in the Galap Thread? “ natural selection” due to the fact that area in which found in abundance they thrive in… is richer in foods and water , year around for 100s’ of years….. , reproducing more and 100’s years later “ own the spot” . Now there are natural boundaries … and of course in South America … the Amazon being the biggest …but again - natural disasters , floods and floating debris,, tribal trading , One could easily forecast a “ natural mix of animals ( escapee’s ) . So if that took place hundreds of years back …and in the most recent history , when someone “ Discovered” the species and named it …I still wonder is it really genetically a different species? …or more of a “current phenotype noted within this century” Anyhow,most of the available published data - the testing and methods that were used is old, as well as the data …..15-20 years old. In the last 5 years alone the medical field which uses the same technology we are talking about “genetic link ageing” has exploded. Old mass spectrometers, electron microscopes , have become a new state of the art machinery. Within a new group of studies of gene linkage , scientist have used the tetrad analysis for the mapping of gene linkage and provide more accurate mapping data.
Although I doubt the engineers and *most* <grin> of the scientists who use these instruments for Cancer, HIV, Human Genetic Mapping research , are going to worry about studying gene alleles in a tortoise.Except for my buddies at the SDZ... other than BS'n with them ... and You Guys N Gals in this forum ..who else knows about tortoises?
For the most part keepers old and new rely on “ visual identification marks” which is not always so accurate. Now I know your not a fan of my hypos and they are “pure” …As pure as ice is cold ….but most people experienced or not would have a hard time identifying what “species local specific “ they are. Nonetheless they do exist with the normal phenotypes’ in that area . Notice I haven’t even mentioned “ the mixing or human hybrid made”. Just plain ol’ tort from the wild lets say on the boarder of Rondonia-Mato Grosso. ….I have never been to see them all natura’ellß-my Lame French…but ya can be darn sure that is on my upcoming bucket list!
Speaking of Galaps ............and some other BIG boyz...

 

[Irish]

If i had the discretionary income, i would buy aldabras and try to successfully breed them.

 

[tortadise]

Island Hopping? The natural intergrades of Galops are on the Isabella Island which inhabits most of the species around the Volcanoes. I have a study that shows intergrade. Not too certain what the fertility or if the fertility was tested among those species. Adingdoni is also still present in a population. Darwin Station is currently trying to re-breed out into as pure of the Pinta Island specie again. The Galapagos are a very very intriguing place. Her we go Gentlemen in regards to the Island map of species being found and intergrade. I belive the issues with captive Galops go hand in hand with the same thing of Aldabras. I know a few breeders that keep both. Happy is the best way to describe keeping these species. They are not a typical put the male with a female and she will get fertilized and lay eggs. Greg(Aldabraman) and I talk quite frequently about his observations in his colony. Also Aldabranerd who does work on the Aldabra Atoll Isalnds with the natural populations of Aldabras tend to depict a very similar scene to that of the Galapagos Species. Happy place a very loaded word in terms of food, safety, and future for the offspring. The giants tend to control the egg laying and fertility cycle. I know a breeder that lives 30 minutes from me. His galaps are 36 years old, and still no fertility. His set up isn't as best as I would do for this species, so I gave as good of input to him as possible, and hopefully he will adjust and begin seeing good results.


I know the Wolf/Darwini have intergraded.

Now for a not so off topic. Yes I would buy one

 

[N2TORTS]

GREAT info Kelly ....thank you !
( island hoping was a joke .....sorta

Nerve racking ... excited ...cautious all words come into play
30 days and counting .....

 

[tortadise]

Well its real to me. I have heard such endeavors on the Aldabra islands. They really pose the same exact scenario as Galapagos. But entirely across the world. Many many different species of Aldabras just never brought up. Use to buy imports of Galaps as late as the early 90s. All they were sold as were per pound or pair or size, not by island or region. Science has come so far even since then with tortoises. same goes for Aldabras. They just import away and who knows which origin they really are. Heck I have one a WC(or farm raised) one and I Dont know. It just may aid the mis informed or lack of understanding why the giants are a more difficult species to breed. I think they are among the ancients and have not adapted or evolved like others have and have no reason to. They walk like the atlas did and are still around. So why change. Us humans are a young species that may be too irrational and arrogant to understand that nature is note simple than thought of. We are impatient when they are not. They what we could learn from. Possibly why some could sterile. Evolving into something that wouldn't work so it sterilizes. Anyways blah blah blah. I could go on for hours about my crazy turtle theories.

 

[N2TORTS]

v^v^CHEERS v^v^.... I told ya ....we'd rap for hours on end!

 

[FLINTUS]

Sorry going to have to disagree with regards to aladabras. The people I met in Mauritius were breeding them in PURE subspecies groups regularly, and remember some of these were hotels. There are now some 3rd generation CB there.

 

[FLINTUS]

Both under chelonoidis I suppose. I believe though red foots' closest living relative is one of the hingebacks in terms of DNA, can't remember which one.
The Pangea thing is very interesting to me as I and at the moment I am digging up info about tortoise evolution and all the tectonic plate movement stuff in order to try and get some collective data on the link between it. The Galapagoses as you said are an interesting bunch, as they are volcano dwellers. Notice how, with the exception of sulcatas and manouria, nearly all species of giant tortoises living or extinct came from island chains in archipelagos, generally with volcanic history. I posted a thread in the advanced topic section if you would care to look, as I would be interested to hear your opinion on it.
Cheers.
Ben

---

Have the mods just deleted some of the posts?

 

[Yvonne G]

So what part of........oops,-looks-like-a-moderator-has-split-off-the-argument- about-redfooted-tortoises-from-the-Galop-thread. I-guess-we'd-better-clean-up-our-act.........didn't you understand?

 

[cdmay]

So what part of........oops,-looks-like-a-moderator-has-split-off-the-argument- about-redfooted-tortoises-from-the-Galop-thread. I-guess-we'd-better-clean-up-our-act.........didn't you understand?

Sigh...I guess you're right. The red-foot comparison was a good one at first.
And then the fun began!
Sorry.

 

[N2TORTS]

Flint .... I found that link.....


Abstract
Perhaps the most enduring debate in reptile systematics has involved the giant Galápagos tortoises (Geochelone nigra), whose origins and systematic relationships captivated Charles Darwin and remain unresolved to this day. Here we report a phylogenetic reconstruction based on mitochondrial DNA sequences from Galápagos tortoises and Geochelone from mainland South America and Africa. The closest living relative to the Galápagos tortoise is not among the larger-bodied tortoises of South America but is the relatively small-bodied Geochelone chilensis, or Chaco tortoise. The split between G. chilensis and the Galápagos lineage probably occurred 6 to 12 million years ago, before the origin of the oldest extant Galápagos island. Our data suggest that the four named southern subspecies on the largest island, Isabela, are not distinct genetic units, whereas a genetically distinct northernmost Isabela subspecies is probably the result of a separate colonization.Estimates of genetic distances also support the sister taxa status of G. chilensis and G. nigra. Among the subspecies of G. nigra, the maximum likelihood distances range from 0 to 0.0124 with a mean of 0.0066 ± 0.004 (SD). Between subspecies of G. nigra and G. chilensis, the average distance is 0.0788 ± 0.005. Between G. nigra and G. carbonaria or G. denticulata ML distances are 0.118 ± 0.005 and 0.116 ± 0.003, respectively.
Fig. 2 also reveals some resolution of the relationships among the Galápagos subspecies. One point of interest is that the five named subspecies on Isabela do not form a monophyletic clade. The four southern Isabela subspecies are sister taxa to the subspecies from Santa Cruz, whereas the northernmost subspecies, G. n. becki, is the sister taxon to G. n. darwini on San Salvador. It is a geographically reasonable scenario for southern Isabela to be colonized from Santa Cruz and northern Isabela to be colonized from San Salvador (Fig. 1).
There is virtually no evidence for genetic differentiation among the four southern Isabela subspecies. The cytb sequence is identical in all individuals sampled. There are only three differences in the 16S rRNA sequence among the eight samples of these four named subspecies. We have also sequenced what is generally the fastest evolving region of mtDNA, the D loop, in individuals from these four subspecies to test whether this region gives evidence of genetic differentiation...


http://www.pnas.org/content/96/23/13223.full

 

[allegraf]

I agree, it's all CDMay's fault! For shame, Carl.