Winter Slowdown?

[Tom]

Hi I have a 7 year old and I live in Cali. I used to worry constantly (and sometimes still do) because once we moved Hardy outside full time we got an insulated dog house, heat lamp, etc. and he hates it!! He refuses to stay inside. I used to hatch a lock to keep him in and raccoons out and he busts through it. Everyone says they need heat. Well Hardy doesn't like it. He wants his natural habitat. He goes up the embankment and burrows and seriously just takes care of himself. They are smarter than people give them credit for. They know when they need to eat/drink, bask in the sun or burrow. Yes I climb up every so often and poke him with a stick (especially with El Niño it's been pretty cold) and yep he's alive and he's stubborn and he comes out when he feels like it!! He's healthy and happy and my baby! I can't give you advice on the heaters because as I said he refuses to use them but I can say don't worry so much. Your baby is smart and he will figure it out on his own. Good luck!

This is wrong on all counts and your assertions are based on incorrect assumptions about the instincts of a wild animal that evolved in a tropical environment. They base their decisions on where to park for the night on a number of factors including security and where they perceive themselves to be safest from predators. Because there is no place that is too cold in the area where they evolved, temperature is often not a factor in their decision. They do not have a mechanism that tells them, "Hey, I'll be too cold if I stay here…" because there is no "too cold" where they come from. Conversely, they definitely DO have a mechanism that tells them, "Hey! Its too hot and my brain is going to cook if I stay here…" because it DOES get too hot in Africa, and here too, and they could die in the sun on a summer day. They DO know how to get out of excessive heat, but they DON'T know how to avoid excessive cold, or how to foresee that things will be too cold.

I can't even count how many sulcatas have died because people jumped to the same incorrect conclusions that you have now reached.

Sulcatas can certainly survive some cold temperatures in some situations. Because they survive these temperatures, does not mean that its good for them. This is a tropical species and the low temps that you are subjecting your tortoise to are not good for it. I know many, many people who have lost their tortoises because they thought the same way you are thinking.

I urge you to re-consider and put your tortoise in the warm enclosure over night. It only takes a few days or weeks and they get used to going in and out on their own. Appropriately strong latches are cheap and easy to find. We got some serious cold and rain coming in a few days, and your tropical tortoise should not be outside in it. We will be glad to share all the tips to get your tortoise used to its night house.

 

[Honeybuns]

All we had was one little heat lamp and he hated it. I'm not convinced he was overheated. From all the research I've done it seems like a lot of heat needs to be filtering into his house. His heat lamp was not that hot. He really doesn't like being enclosed. Even without the heat on and the door open or closed he just won't stay put. I've tried everything. Please know that where he is up on our hill my husband used a cover we used to use to insulate our pool in a previous home. He attached it to the top fence and covered all the bushes and shrubs that he is burrowed under to keep him dry. I would never allow him to get wet in this winter rain. We have been getting a lot of rain already and I was panicking about that. He stays completely dry where he is. But he truly loves that hill. When I bring him down and put him in his house he goes right back to the same place. And now he's way too heavy for me to carry. I think he's smart and I listen to what his instincts are telling him to do.

 

[leigti]

Maybe he doesn't want to be at the bottom of the hill considering all the rain. Put his box at the top of the hill and around all the bushes that he likes to be under. Is the box big enough that he doesn't have to be directly under the light? And do you have a CHE or heat panel for night time heat without light?
I'm just throwing ideas out there. Not trying to start anything just want him to be safe when all this weird weather comes along. The climate where I live is pretty predictable as far as if it is winter the tortoises are inside.

 

[Honeybuns]

While I can appreciate advice and we are all here because we love our tortoises I think some overthink the heat. As you pointed out he may not want to be at the bottom due to the rain further confirms my thought that they are smarter than we give them credit for. Yes the Sarah/African desert is really hot it also gets really cold! There is a misconception that deserts don't get cold. They do. And as with all mammals the tortoise will adapt to its surroundings without using unnatural light/heat. I do my best to take care of him within the boundaries he sets for me. He's happy healthy beautiful and quite affectionate. There are a lot of groups who do not support artificial heat. If I lived in Buffalo I would use artificial heat but not Southern California. I didn't post on here for people to tell me what I am doing all wrong. I posted to help the poor soul who is so worried about their baby and hoped my comments would put their mind at ease a little bit so as not to worry so much. They can take care of themselves pretty well. I make sure he's dry, fed, and has water even though he rarely drinks. Also contrary to what everyone says, my Hardy HATES soaking in water!!

 

[Dizisdalife]

Adult sulcata behavior never ceases to amaze me. Yesterday was sunny at my house with a temperature around 70°F for the high. My 6 year old sully was out of his box by 10 o'clock, sunning in the 59° temps. On a whim I filled his pool with warm tap water and he soaked for about 30 min. If I did the same thing today he might ignore the pool altogether. Or, if I would have filled the pool later in the day he might have ignored it. This winter I have observed my sulcata stay in his box all day when it was sunny and 70° outside ( I thought he should come out and bask, eat, and poop) and I have seen him come out and graze on a 57°, rainy day ( I thought he should stay inside). He didn't stay out very long before he retreated to his warm box. I know so little about these critters.

What I do know is they need to keep their core temperature above 80°, maybe 85°F. On a winter day, like yesterday, my sulcata will come out of his box, maybe take a drink from his waterer, and go to an East facing area to sit in the morning sun. He will graze and roam for a while (they gotta walk) and eventually go back to the sun. Later he will move to a South facing wall. The air temp may be 65°, but that wall is nearly 100°F (sometimes hotter - my temp gun showed 106° yesterday). He will leave when he is ready and roam the yard, but eventually he returns to bask. This is winter behavior. In the summer he may bask for a while in the morning before going into the bushes where he stays until shade covers the entire yard. I never see him basking at that South facing wall in July through September. I know he is trying to regulate his core temp to keep it below some temperature, I'm just not sure what that is. I can tell you that the few times that he does not go into his box at night, choosing to bed down in the thick hedges, is when the temps here hit 100°. Or, mostly when the temps are 90° at sunset. This happens, like I said, only a few times each summer.

Adult sulcata can tolerate some extremes. Their mass, once they get above 40 lbs or so, can hold heat, they will burrow deep underground to avoid the extreme heat and dehydration, they can go long periods without water, and can go without food for weeks. I prefer to not base my day-to-day husbandry on these extremes. A record temp in the Sahara of 136°F in the last century, or a below freezing temp on a few nights has nothing to do with sulcata husbandry. They are not desert tortoises, and do not inhabit the Sahara. Sulcata are grassland tortoises, from the Sahel. Not exactly San Diego weather, but much less extreme that the Sahara Desert. From Wikipedia:

The Sahel is characterized by constant, intense heat and the temperatures don't really vary. The climate is very hot year-round and the Sahel doesn't normally know the cold. During the hottest period, the average high temperatures are generally between 36 °C (96.8 °F) and 42 °C (107.6 °F) (and even more in the hottest regions), often for more than 3 months, while the average low temperatures are easily around 25 °C (77 °F) and 31 °C (87.8 °F). During the "coldest period", the average high temperatures are between 27 °C (80.6 °F) and 33 °C (91.4 °F) and the average low temperature are between 15 °C (59 °F) and 21 °C (69.8 °F). Everywhere in the Sahel, the average mean temperature is over 18 °C (64.4 °F) because the climate is tropical.

While I believe that sulcata adapt to a variety of climates, the need for self-regulating their core temp to 80-85° doesn't change. They just learn how to do this wherever they are. And if they can do it they survive. The first winter my sulcata lived outside he stayed in his heated box a lot. He would never come out in 60° temps. I would see pictures on the Forum of sulcata in the snow and wonder what's wrong with mine. Why won't he come out when it is sunny and warm. Well, by the end of that first winter he was coming out on sunny days in 50° to bask and eat. He was growing and learning how to take care of himself. He knows, I believe that he can warm up in the sun and if not he can return to his heated box where he can stay warm. As he gets older and grows beyond 100lbs (he is about 65 lbs now) I may see different behavior from him.

 

[Tom]

All we had was one little heat lamp and he hated it. I'm not convinced he was overheated. From all the research I've done it seems like a lot of heat needs to be filtering into his house. His heat lamp was not that hot. He really doesn't like being enclosed. Even without the heat on and the door open or closed he just won't stay put. I've tried everything. Please know that where he is up on our hill my husband used a cover we used to use to insulate our pool in a previous home. He attached it to the top fence and covered all the bushes and shrubs that he is burrowed under to keep him dry. I would never allow him to get wet in this winter rain. We have been getting a lot of rain already and I was panicking about that. He stays completely dry where he is. But he truly loves that hill. When I bring him down and put him in his house he goes right back to the same place. And now he's way too heavy for me to carry. I think he's smart and I listen to what his instincts are telling him to do.

Your tortoise is NOT "smart" and his instincts would serve him quite well in Sub-saharah Africa, but his instincts will kill him in North America.

Further, a heat lamp in a dog house is not a good strategy for sulcatas. This slow burns the top of their carapace while leaving the rest of their body still too cold. It doesn't work.

Tortoises are creatures of habit. He is used to sleeping where you've allowed him to choose to sleep. This does not mean he is "smart" and is logically considering the good and and points of where it might be best to sleep. He's sleeping there because he's slept there before, and this area has become his habituated "safe zone". He does not understand that due to temps that are too cold, this area is not safe for him.

As I said before, many tortoises have died because of these mis-conceptions that you are promoting.

 

[Tom]

While I can appreciate advice and we are all here because we love our tortoises I think some overthink the heat. As you pointed out he may not want to be at the bottom due to the rain further confirms my thought that they are smarter than we give them credit for. Yes the Sarah/African desert is really hot it also gets really cold! There is a misconception that deserts don't get cold. They do. And as with all mammals the tortoise will adapt to its surroundings without using unnatural light/heat. I do my best to take care of him within the boundaries he sets for me. He's happy healthy beautiful and quite affectionate. There are a lot of groups who do not support artificial heat. If I lived in Buffalo I would use artificial heat but not Southern California. I didn't post on here for people to tell me what I am doing all wrong. I posted to help the poor soul who is so worried about their baby and hoped my comments would put their mind at ease a little bit so as not to worry so much. They can take care of themselves pretty well. I make sure he's dry, fed, and has water even though he rarely drinks. Also contrary to what everyone says, my Hardy HATES soaking in water!!

This post and your attachments demonstrate that you have the wrong idea. I am not trying to attack you, insult you or make you feel bad, but I am trying to convince you that you have the wrong idea before your tortoise dies.

I have no misconception about how cold the desert gets. I live there. It snows in the desert sometimes. Icicles on the barbed wire fences are common in winter. This has NOTHING to do with sulcatas since they don't live in the desert. Sulcatas do not inhabit the Sahara, or any other desert. This is a misconception that has been parroted for 30 years! These are NOT desert tortoises. They live in the Sahel Grassland Region, SOUTH of the Sahara desert. Listing Sahara Desert conditions when discussing sulcatas is like listing San Francisco Bay temperatures when discussing CA desert tortoises. Totally different climates.

Look at the info that Joe provided. The lowest extreme low in the most unusual cold winter spell is 64.4F. This is above ground. The high for the next day will be over 80 degrees and possibly more than 90. I've been watching the weather in 6 areas of Africa where sulcatas still occur. The coldest winter night time lows are usually 65-70F. Each day still gets up to nearly 100. On a cold rainy day its still 88-90. These "winter" temps simulate our summer temps here. Do know what the temperatures in my burrows are with no artificial heat all summer long are? 79-81. 95 degree days and 65 degree nights yield burrow temps of 80 degrees three feet under ground. This is a good reflection of what burrow temps are down in the sulcata burrows in Africa where sulcatas naturally occur. These temps would be even warmer in their summer. This is another often over looked point when discussing temperatures in any given region. We are discussing the temperatures 2 meters above the ground at these locations. That is where the whether stations measure these temps. The sulcatas are underground during these times and burrow temps will be closer to an average of the highs and lows.

About your second post. Dave Friend of the Ojai Sulcata Project is a friend of mine. He and I have debated this topic and many others repeatedly. His argument is that his tortoises are still alive even though he lets them get too cold. Ask him how many have died at his place and the waters get a little muddier. Dave has been changing his views on Sulcata husbandry over the years as evidence mounts, but his website doesn't reflect the changes yet. His health is failing him and updating websites are not a priority right now. He keeps his tortoises too cold at night. Most of them survive this most of the time, but merely surviving unfavorable conditions is not, and should not be the gold standard. We should be striving to provide OPTIMAL conditions for our tortoises, not testing the limits of what they can survive. If you put 100 humans in individual cages with no shelter out in the desert in winter, some percentage of the humans might survive it. Some will die sooner than others, but this does not mean these conditions were "good" for the survivors. Likewise, your tortoise might be surviving some cold nights, but that doesn't make it "good" for him.

If your tortoise dies or gets sick, are you going to come back and tell the group you were wrong? If he keeps surviving, does that somehow make you think you are right about this? What do you say to the people whose tortoises died from cold exposure because they read posts like yours and Dave's? How come their tortoise weren't as "smart" as yours and didn't survive?

I know of not ONE single person whose tortoise has died because they kept it properly warm at night. NOT ONE. Yet I know of dozens that have died from lack of heat. What can you cite to answer that?

 

[thegame2388]

This, I think, is unanimous among SoCal tortoise keepers right now. This winter is consistently colder than any other I can remember. Its been over a month since the temp was in the 70's here and I really can't remember that ever happening before.

Some of my sulcatas are still coming out, but not much and not for long. Tuck is hardly coming out at all, while Goldy comes out nearly everyday, grazes for a bit and then goes back in. These are my two extremes. Same with my leopards. The females are still coming out and eating, but not staying out much. One of the males comes out and wanders around or suns himself, but the other two are hardly coming out at all.

I'm actually considering adding some lights to their boxes. I've never considered this before because its never been needed. This winter is really unprecedented here, especially considering the last few that had so many days in the high 70's or 80s and a few in the 90s.

I looked back at last year, and the same thing happened and he ended up coming out more and more around Mid to late January. Still kinda scares me that the sully doesn't come out on his own even if it IS 60F or 55F outside. Had it not been for me taking him out and feeding, he'd probably NOT eat for 10+ days.

 

[Honeybuns]

This post and your attachments demonstrate that you have the wrong idea. I am not trying to attack you, insult you or make you feel bad, but I am trying to convince you that you have the wrong idea before your tortoise dies.

I have no misconception about how cold the desert gets. I live there. It snows in the desert sometimes. Icicles on the barbed wire fences are common in winter. This has NOTHING to do with sulcatas since they don't live in the desert. Sulcatas do not inhabit the Sahara, or any other desert. This is a misconception that has been parroted for 30 years! These are NOT desert tortoises. They live in the Sahel Grassland Region, SOUTH of the Sahara desert. Listing Sahara Desert conditions when discussing sulcatas is like listing San Francisco Bay temperatures when discussing CA desert tortoises. Totally different climates.

Look at the info that Joe provided. The lowest extreme low in the most unusual cold winter spell is 64.4F. This is above ground. The high for the next day will be over 80 degrees and possibly more than 90. I've been watching the weather in 6 areas of Africa where sulcatas still occur. The coldest winter night time lows are usually 65-70F. Each day still gets up to nearly 100. On a cold rainy day its still 88-90. These "winter" temps simulate our summer temps here. Do know what the temperatures in my burrows are with no artificial heat all summer long are? 79-81. 95 degree days and 65 degree nights yield burrow temps of 80 degrees three feet under ground. This is a good reflection of what burrow temps are down in the sulcata burrows in Africa where sulcatas naturally occur. These temps would be even warmer in their summer. This is another often over looked point when discussing temperatures in any given region. We are discussing the temperatures 2 meters above the ground at these locations. That is where the whether stations measure these temps. The sulcatas are underground during these times and burrow temps will be closer to an average of the highs and lows.

About your second post. Dave Friend of the Ojai Sulcata Project is a friend of mine. He and I have debated this topic and many others repeatedly. His argument is that his tortoises are still alive even though he lets them get too cold. Ask him how many have died at his place and the waters get a little muddier. Dave has been changing his views on Sulcata husbandry over the years as evidence mounts, but his website doesn't reflect the changes yet. His health is failing him and updating websites are not a priority right now. He keeps his tortoises too cold at night. Most of them survive this most of the time, but merely surviving unfavorable conditions is not, and should not be the gold standard. We should be striving to provide OPTIMAL conditions for our tortoises, not testing the limits of what they can survive. If you put 100 humans in individual cages with no shelter out in the desert in winter, some percentage of the humans might survive it. Some will die sooner than others, but this does not mean these conditions were "good" for the survivors. Likewise, your tortoise might be surviving some cold nights, but that doesn't make it "good" for him.

If your tortoise dies or gets sick, are you going to come back and tell the group you were wrong? If he keeps surviving, does that somehow make you think you are right about this? What do you say to the people whose tortoises died from cold exposure because they read posts like yours and Dave's? How come their tortoise weren't as "smart" as yours and didn't survive?

I know of not ONE single person whose tortoise has died because they kept it properly warm at night. NOT ONE. Yet I know of dozens that have died from lack of heat. What can you cite to answer that?

Point taken. Sorry to hear about your friend. I really enjoyed his website when we first got Hardy but I did notice it hadn't been updated in a few years and I even tried to contact him regarding the heat issue and I never got a response. I assumed it was inactive. Do you have a website Tom?

 

[Tom]

Do you have a website Tom?

I do not. I just post all my info here on this forum.

Dave and his wife are really good people and very dedicated to tortoises. He meant well when he made that site, but he did it to directly oppose everything I was telling people. As the years went by and he saw my results, and heard the same thing from several other sources that he respected, he admitted to me on the phone that I "might" be right about some of this stuff. I haven't talked to him in a couple of years, but I love the man. If you get the chance to meet him and talk tortoises, go out of your way to take it. You've reminded me that I need to call him and go for a visit.

 

[Tom]

I looked back at last year, and the same thing happened and he ended up coming out more and more around Mid to late January. Still kinda scares me that the sully doesn't come out on his own even if it IS 60F or 55F outside. Had it not been for me taking him out and feeding, he'd probably NOT eat for 10+ days.

All my girls were out wandering and eating today, but only two juveniles came up and Tuck stayed in.

 

[thegame2388]

All my girls were out wandering and eating today, but only two juveniles came up and Tuck stayed in.

I'd say mine's a juvenile now at 2.5 years old. It's gonna be a rainy season this year...El Nino here we come!

 

[Tom]

I'd say mine's a juvenile now at 2.5 years old. It's gonna be a rainy season this year...El Nino here we come!

That just means more weeds! FREE TORTOISE FOOD!!!

 

[Tom]

Point taken. Sorry to hear about your friend. I really enjoyed his website when we first got Hardy but I did notice it hadn't been updated in a few years and I even tried to contact him regarding the heat issue and I never got a response. I assumed it was inactive. Do you have a website Tom?

Something else pertinent to this conversation occurred to me earlier today. I used to keep my sulcatas cooler in the winter too. Never without heat, but significantly cooler than I do now. When I made the switch to warmer temps, the difference was astounding. I wondered if you have ever kept one securely housed and warm over winter and compared the difference? If you haven't, you ought to. At that point, I think what I am trying to explain here will make a lot more sense to you.

I was just discussing this very thing in another member's thread yesterday. I thought you might be interested. Check it out: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/overnight-temps-in-tortoise-house.134073/#post-1263867

 

[thegame2388]

That just means more weeds! FREE TORTOISE FOOD!!!

It also means I'm freaking out daily.

 

[Tom]

It also means I'm freaking out daily.

Pshhhhhhh......

Rookie.

 

[Honeybuns]

I freak out about the rain too. I wish he lived inside

 

[Honeybuns]

Something else pertinent to this conversation occurred to me earlier today. I used to keep my sulcatas cooler in the winter too. Never without heat, but significantly cooler than I do now. When I made the switch to warmer temps, the difference was astounding. I wondered if you have ever kept one securely housed and warm over winter and compared the difference? If you haven't, you ought to. At that point, I think what I am trying to explain here will make a lot more sense to you.

I was just discussing this very thing in another member's thread yesterday. I thought you might be interested. Check it out: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/overnight-temps-in-tortoise-house.134073/#post-1263867

I only have one. Why don't you come to San Diego and help me? also what do your salcatas soak in?

 

[Tom]

I freak out about the rain too. I wish he lived inside

I don't know if you've seen these yet, but these are the reason I don't worry about the rain at all.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/double-door-night-box.129054/

Just throwing that out there…


I have 5x3' giant cement mixing tubs that I use for soaking the adults.

 

[thegame2388]

Pshhhhhhh......

Rookie.

I'm sorry my master.