Tortoise prefers cold?

[Brian]

I had a quick question. I recently purchased my first leopard tortoise from a breeder I know and trust. The tort is a little over 1 year old and has been raised in an outdoor enclosure during the warmer periods and in a greenhouse when the temps drop. It appears to be very healthy, active, eating and pooping regularly. I built it a table that measures 4'x2' with an organic soil substrate and a half log hide with sphagnum moss for humidity. I drilled some holes in the top of the hide to allow better heat penetration from the CHE that hangs above it. The table is typically about 78-80 degrees on the left side where the hide is located, 85-90 in the center (heated and lit by a MVB for UV) and has a basking spot on the right side that reaches 105 from a halogen bulb. There are some edible plants planted in the substrate (checked them on TortoiseTable) and a water dish that it can easily enter and exit. It basically has an option to thermoregulate through all of the temp zones that I have read it should need. I keep the substrate moist by spraying 2-3 x's a day and run the lights on a 12/12 cycle.
Anyways, my question is this... The tortoise tends to prefer to spend much of its time in the 1 corner of the table that gets very little heat due to the limited reach of the CHE. The corner runs about 74 degrees throughout the entire day and night. Since it has access to any and all temp ranges, why would it spend so much time in the cooler part of its home? I would think that the tortoise would know what is best for it and stay where it can be properly heated. What am I missing here?

 

[von345]

I have been having this same discussion on FB with someone. One of mine does the same thing. Burrows down in the part of the cage that's around 77. Mine is a Leopard so this is really low for him. I soak him everyday but I think I'm going to increase the time to 20-30 min. Incase he is dehydrated. Torts self regulate so maybe ours just like it cool

 

[Brian]

LOL! Yeah, that is probably me on FB! I figured since I was a member here on this forum and I never use it I would give it a try and see how many other opinions or suggestions I could get. Thank you for the response again.

 

[Markw84]

Have you read through the post on how to raise a healthy sulcate or leopard? That is a great starting place.

Sounds like you have an open table. You don't say what part of the world you are in, but normally humidity is going to be a problem with an open table. It also is quite small for a leopard that is now 1 yr old. A leopard tortoise will prefer areas of higher humidity and cover to hide in. The side with your MVB is quite bright and the heat makes it the driest part of the enclosure. A leopard will choose to spend the most of its time under bushes where it feels more secure and the humidity is higher. So, I don't think it is the lower temperatures, but rather the need to hide, away from the light and drier area that causes your tortoise to choose that side.

74 is too cold. I always keep my leopards (and sulcatas and stars) with a minimum that never drops below 80 as hatchlings and juveniles. Also I always keep the humidity at 80%+ in the enclosure. I want to convince them all it is the monsoon season - the time they thrive and grow in the wild. I think once you start doing that, you will find your tortoise much more active and not feeling the need to hide and wait for the monsoon season to begin!!

 

[Alexio]

It is possible that it is moisture and not temperature that they are choosing. Is there a correlation to the hottest parts of the enclosure drying out faster? I have noticed for the first few days when the substrate is very moist my leopard sleeps in her hide, after a few days when the the substrate starts to dry she will actually burrow about 2 inches down on the oppsit side of the enclosure. I believe that certain types of tortoises ( more specifically ones who hibernate) who are good with subtle temperature shifts. And are able to adapt according to know what is best for their survival. Leopards who don't hibernate, don't have to make choices in the wild . In lower Africa it's hot and really really hot. So they wouldn't be as concerned about being the "right" or "wrong" temperature. Where as a species who lives in an area with significant shifts in climate like many Mediterranean species. In Africa leopards would have to make choices to seek out more moist and humid places over dryer ones. Just my two cents on the idea, I would bump all the temps up to at least 79/80 . Just to be safe.

 

[Brian]

Thank you. I have a much larger CHE on the way that will raise the temps in the areas that are currently too cold. I am working on a plan for a top that will hold humidity in, allow me access and look nice as well. It's challenging since it must look good and be functional. I will add a humidifier until I get it built. That should help a ton.

 

[Tom]

I had a quick question. I recently purchased my first leopard tortoise from a breeder I know and trust. The tort is a little over 1 year old and has been raised in an outdoor enclosure during the warmer periods and in a greenhouse when the temps drop. It appears to be very healthy, active, eating and pooping regularly. I built it a table that measures 4'x2' with an organic soil substrate and a half log hide with sphagnum moss for humidity. I drilled some holes in the top of the hide to allow better heat penetration from the CHE that hangs above it. The table is typically about 78-80 degrees on the left side where the hide is located, 85-90 in the center (heated and lit by a MVB for UV) and has a basking spot on the right side that reaches 105 from a halogen bulb. There are some edible plants planted in the substrate (checked them on TortoiseTable) and a water dish that it can easily enter and exit. It basically has an option to thermoregulate through all of the temp zones that I have read it should need. I keep the substrate moist by spraying 2-3 x's a day and run the lights on a 12/12 cycle.
Anyways, my question is this... The tortoise tends to prefer to spend much of its time in the 1 corner of the table that gets very little heat due to the limited reach of the CHE. The corner runs about 74 degrees throughout the entire day and night. Since it has access to any and all temp ranges, why would it spend so much time in the cooler part of its home? I would think that the tortoise would know what is best for it and stay where it can be properly heated. What am I missing here?

Tortoises choose where to hang out based on a variety of factors. Competing factors sometimes. It may be that your tortoise wants to be warmer, but it wants to feel safe from predation more than it wants warmth. In the wild, every where is warm enough, so this isn't a choice they would likely have to make often.

There are some things I would do differently in your set up. I will list them and you can take it or leave it. I'll feel better if you at least know and have the option of changing.
1. Open tables are not a good way to raise babies. They are too open and humidity cannot be contained.
2. Spraying the substrate does very little. You'll need to dump water into it to get any sort of humidity out of it.
3. Sphagnum moss is often eaten by tortoises. I can't use it in any of my set ups, and I recommend most people not use it.
4. Soil is not a good substrate in my experience because it is too messy, and because you can't know what competed material it is made of. It could be oleander or azaleas. It could be grass sprayed with all sorts of chemicals to keep it looking pretty. Or it could be harmless. No way to know.
5. Half log hides do not offer any humidity. It all escapes out through the wide open ends.
6. Drilling holes in the top of a hide under a CHE basically guarantees a lack of humidity.
7. 74 is much too cold. No part of the enclosure should drop below 80 with damp substrate.

I hope all this helps and here is some more info that will help:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

 

[wellington]

Totally agree with Markw84 on all things, specially the fact that a 4x2 enclosure is way too small. I have my hatchling leopard in that size.

 

[Brian]

Thank you. I will make some changes starting with its hide. Like mentioned I am working on a plan for a top. I understand the importance of holding in the humidity.

 

[Markw84]

Thank you. I have a much larger CHE on the way that will raise the temps in the areas that are currently too cold. I am working on a plan for a top that will hold humidity in, allow me access and look nice as well. It's challenging since it must look good and be functional. I will add a humidifier until I get it built. That should help a ton.

I actually would recommend two smaller CHE's on one thermostat, not a large one. Or better yet, use a radiant heat panel. Try to create a more even, spread out heat source for the ambient heat. Just sizing up the CHE will create an even more pronounced hot spot, and when the CHE is on, it is really fighting humidity. I use two 100W CHE's in a 3x8 enclosed chamber. While the garage is 60f they only need to go on perhaps5 minutes every few hours in the evening, and in the daytime, the two 65W basking flood lights keep the temp above 80 and the CHE's never go on. In fact, now, with garage temps hitting 85 late afternoons, I have to have my basking lights on a separate thermostat to kick OFF when ambient temps reach 91. That's also why I use fluorescents for ambient lighting and UVB.

 

[Brian]

I wanted to let you all know that I got home last night from work and added a clear shower curtain over the top of the enclosure, making sure it is not too close to any of the heat lamps and it has already made a nice improvement. The humidity is up over 80% and the temps are much more evenly distributed. I am only using the 1 MVB for both heat and UV but it seems to be enough to keep the temps around 82 throughout most of the enclosure except for directly under the lamp which is in the mid-upper 90's. It also seems to have made the tortoise much more active and increased its appetite. It's a temporary fix for now but it is working until I can fabricate a sturdy, safe and permanent cover tonight or tomorrow. Thank you all for your recommendations and help. I come from the poison dart frog hobby, which I have been breeding and selling for almost 10 years. Being such small and delicate animals I am very familiar with temperature and humidity requirements for certain animals to thrive. I admit, I was a little under prepared and under educated for the tortoise but I am more than capable of making sure he gets the best possible environment and I am working hard at making sure I provide it for him/her as soon as possible. I will try and post some pictures once I have the cover completed so you all can give me some feedback.

 

[Yvonne G]

In response to this thread's title - the tortoise probably just prefers that particular spot, regardless of the temperature there. I would move the hiding place to that spot and add more heat there. They really don't know much about hot/cold because of where they come from. Certain parts of Africa it is hot and hotter, no cold to speak of.

 

[von345]

I have a humidifier and a CHE on the dark end and a powersun 100 watt on the other. I have been using cypress mulch as substrate because it holds in moister. I had the same problems as you. I increased their soak time to 20-30 mins day in warm water and placed a shower curtain over the entire enclosure. It had worked wonders

 

[Brian]

Here is a pic of my temporary fix. It has also done much better. Still need to work on my night time temps and basking spot temps but I should have my solution here in the next couple days.

 

[RedFire]

I had a quick question. I recently purchased my first leopard tortoise from a breeder I know and trust. The tort is a little over 1 year old and has been raised in an outdoor enclosure during the warmer periods and in a greenhouse when the temps drop. It appears to be very healthy, active, eating and pooping regularly. I built it a table that measures 4'x2' with an organic soil substrate and a half log hide with sphagnum moss for humidity. I drilled some holes in the top of the hide to allow better heat penetration from the CHE that hangs above it. The table is typically about 78-80 degrees on the left side where the hide is located, 85-90 in the center (heated and lit by a MVB for UV) and has a basking spot on the right side that reaches 105 from a halogen bulb. There are some edible plants planted in the substrate (checked them on TortoiseTable) and a water dish that it can easily enter and exit. It basically has an option to thermoregulate through all of the temp zones that I have read it should need. I keep the substrate moist by spraying 2-3 x's a day and run the lights on a 12/12 cycle.
Anyways, my question is this... The tortoise tends to prefer to spend much of its time in the 1 corner of the table that gets very little heat due to the limited reach of the CHE. The corner runs about 74 degrees throughout the entire day and night. Since it has access to any and all temp ranges, why would it spend so much time in the cooler part of its home? I would think that the tortoise would know what is best for it and stay where it can be properly heated. What am I missing here?

What about showing us your tortoise and its enclosure for comprehensive diagnosis. Give us some pics.

 

[Brian]

 

[RedFire]

In your picture of the enclosure that the shelter is a dry area, right? You should check it. I think all of tortoises need a wet warm shelter when they sleep especially Africa species as leopard.

 

[RedFire]

The improve method advice is take off the right heat lamp and change a night light bulb with 75W move to between the shelter and the middle lamp and turn on at night.

 

[Brian]

Thank you. I have a larger CHE on its way that should get the night time temps up sufficiently. The one I have is too small. The humidity is staying nice and high with the top added. Twice daily waterings keep it no less than 70 % and that is only for a short while in between waterings.

 

[von345]

I think your doing a good job of changing things around for what's best for the tortoise.