Oh I thought if I kept him warm that he would come out in the morning and graze still, he won't? Do they stop eating all together?
Candy said:Oh I thought if I kept him warm that he would come out in the morning and graze still, he won't? Do they stop eating all together?
Tom said:There is just no reason and no justification to hibernate animals that you care about "naturally" outdoors. There are too many variables and too many things that can go wrong. I think they do need to hibernate, but it should be done indoors under controlled and monitored conditions. Why risk it? Why not just do it indoors, where you know it will be fine? Can they survive it outdoors? Well, yes, most of the time they do. But why settle for "most of the time" when you can be sure ALL of the time, if its done right indoors. They get the same benefit of outdoor hibernation without any of the risk.
Candy said:I'm just going to chime in here on something that was posted....I watched the videos that Danny posted the other day on the Desert Tortoise and now I'm certainly convinced that I can definitely provide a better life here in my backyard for Fernando then he would have out there. There are too many uncertainties out where they normally live. I have a big backyard for him to roam around in and he seems to really like the space. He has food and water whenever he wants or needs it and he has an enclosure outside that protects him from predators and weather. Not to mention he has so many animal friends here too....two dogs and two cats and Dale. He has us to rub his shell and I think if there was one thing that I feel kind of bad about lately it's that although he might not need any company I don't think he would mind a running into a female tortoise once in a while. I do really feel bad about that because he endlessly roams around probably trying to find a female and that's not going to happen unless I make it happen. So I'm not so convinced that there not better off with us taking care of them (sometimes). Sorry a little off subject....now back to the hibernating discussion.
Jacqui said:Tom said:There is just no reason and no justification to hibernate animals that you care about "naturally" outdoors. There are too many variables and too many things that can go wrong. I think they do need to hibernate, but it should be done indoors under controlled and monitored conditions. Why risk it? Why not just do it indoors, where you know it will be fine? Can they survive it outdoors? Well, yes, most of the time they do. But why settle for "most of the time" when you can be sure ALL of the time, if its done right indoors. They get the same benefit of outdoor hibernation without any of the risk.
First off, they still get risks and still many die during hibernation when we humans play god and force them into hibernation. Even folks with years of experience loss some while hibernating them in these controlled settings. Second so many folks do hibernations wrong and kill even more tortoises. We too often only put them into a partial hibernation which is a slow starvation type death.
Your reasoning for why inside is so much safer, could also be applied to why even house them outdoors? We can so much better keeping them inside at a constant temp, constant humidity, no predators, so why ever would we risk housing them outside???
Or perhaps why do we try so hard to give them natural diets, grow our own food for them, etc, when we could so much easier just give them only a human made pellet diet that contains all the things they need?
We may not be able to give them fully the life they would have in the wild, mainly because we can't give them the same room to roam for starters. Does that mean we should not try? It's like trying to make them all follow in this one pattern and we know they are each individual beings, much like no two humans have the exact same needs at the exact same time.
Is a sterile life with no freedom to reason, not allowed to follow their own thoughts and their own natural instincts in the name of keeping them safe really giving them much of a life? Does the number of days really mean more then the quality of those days?
Tom said:Jacqui, we both have different FEELINGS on the matter, but the FACTS are as follows:
1. Sure anything can go wrong with indoor hibernation, just like anything can go wrong with housing them at any time in any way. We see it here on the site far too often. People lose tortoises all the time for a variety of reasons. The fact is, I have never lost a single animal of any species, lizard or tortoise, during indoor hibernation.
Fact is I too have not had problems, either inside nor outside. I think from my own personal observations the ones allowed to do so naturally, outside have done better for me.
2. Fact: I HAVE lost several animals over the years trying to do it outside and I live in a relatively mild climate. It gets below freezing nearly every night during winter, but there is relatively little rain and it never snows. I'm very close to the natural habitat of the CDT and the climate is really similar, but in my artificial outdoor pens they cannot do whatever it is they do in the wild and, in the past, some of them have died because of it. Again, I've never lost a single one or had any problem doing the same darn thing indoors.
Fact none of mine hibernated outside died from hibernation. Sorry you had problems.
3. Fact: I have never forced any animal into hibernation. Every single one wanted to hibernate. I just make sure that since we artificially interfere with the process by having them captive, that I artificially make sure their body is ready for it, meaning well hydrated and an empty gut.
Fact it is forcing if you determine when the food is completely stopped, when you do the soakings, when you put them down, and so on. We call it forced soakings when we place them into the water bowl and not allow them to get out when they want to, even if they actually do drink while in that water. To me this falls into the same term..Forced.[/color]
Also, to address your other point, whether they sleep in a box in my garage or in the ground in your yard hardly makes a difference as far as "quality of Life". They are asleep. Basically dead to the world. When they are up and active, I think the size of the enclosure, diet, exercise and sunshine DO make a HUGE difference as far as "quality of life". I just don't equate protecting them from the uncertainties of an outdoor winter, while they are ASLEEP, to a sterile life with no freedom.
You fail to see what I wrote, the quality is not while they are asleep, the quality comes in the ability to make their own choices BEFORE they sleep and AFTER they decide to wake up. I think ALL choices we allow our tortoises increases their quality of life.
http://tortoiseforum.org/jscripts/editor_themes/default/images/color.gif
Lastly, I don't know how my tone will come across in typed form, but I mean you know disrespect at all. I've just had some really bad times hibernating animals that I absolutely loved outdoors, and I've had, literally, nothing but success doing it indoors.
Your tone did to me come across as sounding like those of us who believe in the natural as possible way of life to care less for our animals and that we value them less, thus are more willing to allow them to die. I understand you have had bad times, I am showing the opposite can be true and why I believe it can be a good thing. When I had my DT, he was hibernated in the box. That always seemed some how wrong and barren, unnatural. Elmer, the DT, had no problems with it (as far as I could tell.
Also as you recall in the beginning, I have said I have done it outside, done it inside, done it in the frig, kept them up but not fully heated,and have also kept tortoises up all winter with the full light/heat. Each of us need to look into our hearts and minds and find what works best for us AND our tortoises/turtles.
emysemys said:To hibernate outside or inside really depends upon where you live and your climate.
*blushes* Thank you *blushes again*terryo said:I think this is a WONDERFUL post. Everything I could think of, but not able to put into words. I have a learning disability, and sometimes I can't put down what I'm thinking.
"Is a sterile life with no freedom to reason, not allowed to follow their own thoughts and their own natural instincts in the name of keeping them safe really giving them much of a life? Does the number of days really mean more then the quality of those days?" Wow!!! Thank you.