Testudo kleinmanni? Testudo werneri?

[JerryBerry]

Hello everyone!
It's my first post ever in this group I hope I could find some help
So my family came by these two tortoises. According to as much research as I could muster, they're T. kleinmannis, but T. werneri seem to be very similar as well, so I'm not sure which one they are. The larger female is Nina, and we've had her for the past three years or so. The smaller male is Jerry, and we got him today. The female was given to us for free, the male we bought for €50. The ages of either are a complete mystery, as are their origins. Our best guess is that they were brought here in the 80's when workers used to travel to Libya and back, and they would get tortoises with them through less-than-vigilant security. Whenever we asked their previous owners where they came from, all I got were answers like "oh it's a long story" or "oh nobody knows". If they are a rare species, I'd love to register them locally and try my best to breed them. I hope the photos are clear.

Female: 127mm carapace length, 404grams in weight
Male: 95mm long, 186g in weight.

Thanks in advance

 

[JoesMum]

This sounds like one for @HermanniChris

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...Baha/f8877cb064d562c116658ac82127a1c32f40b862

did this pop up in your research?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hi Jerry

 

[JerryBerry]

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...Baha/f8877cb064d562c116658ac82127a1c32f40b862

did this pop up in your research?

Indeed it did, but it's from 2007, and there were mentions of werneri as a separate species more recently than that
So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

In all honesty I'm happy with them being either species... as long as breeding is possible

 

[JerryBerry]

Hi Jerry
View attachment 199902

Thank you from the Island of Malta

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Hello and a very warm welcome to Tortoise Forum to you; Nina and Jerry.

 

[Yvonne G]

Welcome to the Forum! Hopefully @HermanniChris will see this soon and give you an I.D.

 

[HermanniChris]

Welcome.

Werneri is invalid in taxonomy right now as are many once proposed subspecies particularly within the Testudo genus i.e. T. g. whitei, T. weissingeri & T. h. hercegovinensis. If anything it would be regarded as a geographical variant but like almost anything in the Chelonian world, this warrants much more research first.

Many Testudo kleinmanni lose the chevrons on the plastron from simple wear and tear and lose much of the dark pigment of the carapace from age, so it's very possible that this is what they are. I have several in my collection that look as though they are T. werneri but I know they are kleinmanni. Unfortunately there's simply no way to know for sure unless you knew exactly where they or their parents were collected.

Hope this helps.

 

[JerryBerry]

Thank you all for your warm welcomes and replies. Thanks @HermanniChris for your reply, I guess they're T. Kleinmanni then what resources for info do you suggest regarding breeding? I've seen a few inconsistencies across the web and I want to do things properly

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/why-my-eggs-are-shrinking.140728/page-2#post-1315689

Here is one here on TFO @JerryBerry .

 

[JerryBerry]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/why-my-eggs-are-shrinking.140728/page-2#post-1315689

Here is one here on TFO @JerryBerry .

Thank you I'll take a look